November 1999 - NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

0867 Access to Internet
by Nevil Brownlee 11 Nov '99

11 Nov '99

Dear Mr Williamson: This week I have been in America at an Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) meeting. IETF meetings bring together around 2000 technical people who are working together to develop and improve the global Internet. Among them are people from most of the world's telecommunications companies, which gives me a very good chance to talk to them and find out how telephone services work in other countries. I have taken the opportunity to canvas opinion on Telecom New Zealand's 0867 service for Internet access from the Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN). Everyone has responded with open-mouthed astonishment to the idea that a single company could actually do this, and remark that "it wouldn't be legal in any other country." The effect of this service is to force ISP's to use Telecom to provide PSTN connection services for them, or to use another provider with whom Telecom has an '0867 agreement.' I fail to understand why you, as Minister of Communications, are prepared to allow any one company to exercise such a high degree of control over public access to the Internet in New Zealand. Would you please let me know how you intend to correct this anomoly if you continue to be New Zealand's Minister of Telecommunications? Yours sincerely, (Dr.) Nevil Brownlee +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Nevil Brownlee Director, Technology Development | | Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x8941 ITSS, The University of Auckland | | FAX: +64 9 373 7021 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand | +---------------------------------------------------------------------L --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: Wee query about clear :)
by Arron Scott 11 Nov '99

11 Nov '99

Joe's point about Merit is where this get's interesting to me. Obviously, WIX and APE should move to a Arbitrated network in my opinion, if you are providing the route server, then you provide the only rational filtering point. On the issue of running the database though, this data may well reach beyond the realm of WIX and APE and their customers, for instance NetGate could use it to Clear directly etc. Wouldn't it be nice if we could trust that ISOCNZ and DomaiNZ could provide a useful cost-effective and more regionally acurate alternative to Merit !!! Well, I'm allowed to dream aren't I !!! Arron Scott Telecom NZ On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Joe Abley wrote: > On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 10:30:59AM +1300, Simon Blake wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jamie Clark wrote: > > > > > WIX has obviously worked well without filters so far. > > > > It comes and goes. Generally, it works fine, and that's probably a > > reflection on the stability of the NZ net, or at least, the bit that peers > > in wellington. In general, it's changes (additions of new peers) that can > > cause temporary hiccups (Actrix advertising 4000 prefixes yesterday being > > a good example). > > Originally, there was only one peering point, in Hamilton. It used > OSPF, which you couldn't filter, but that was generally ok because it > was more important to connect people to the exchange quickly and > easily than it was to worry about filtering problems. When your > only route out is through the exchange, you don't necessarily need > to worry much about filtering. > > Now there are three exchanges as well as private peering links in > the network, some operators have a choice of as many as six routes > for their domestic traffic to take as it leaves their network. This > requires some traffic engineering that previously was not particularly > necessary. > > The proliferation of domestic peering also means that finger trouble > at one particular operator now has (in some cases) six times as many > ways to cause problems for other operators, in a manner that is quite > possibly six times harder to debug. > > All this adds up to the fact that when Angry Customer calls up to > find out why his Angry Customer can't talk to someone else's Angry > Customer, you need some idea of how things _ought_ to look before > you can figure out what has broken. > > Publishing route policy makes that easier. It also makes it easier > to filter with some confidence, which is also a good thing. If > Atrix release 4000 prefixes into the network, and you pick them > up and trust them, then it's your fault for not filtering. Don't > yell at Actrix :) > > The tools required to set up and run an RPSL registry are all freely > available, but it _is_ something that needs to be set up professionally > and run as such, in my opinion. A flaky database which contains out-of- > date information because people can't update it is probably worse than > no database at all. > > Merit now charge US$200/year to keep records in their database. In the > absense of a similar facility elsewhere (e.g. in NZ) that is as stable > as Merit's, I would say that was good value for money. > > > My policy at the moment tends to vary, depending on the customer. If the > > peer is an ISP (ie, if they have their own ASN), then I assume they know > > what they're doing, > > You missed out the ":)" > > > and I don't filter incoming or outgoing updates, > > unless requested by the peer. > > Warning! Warning! > > > Joe > --------- > To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > where the body of your message reads: > unsubscribe nznog > --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: Wee query about clear :) (fwd)
by Simon Blake 10 Nov '99

10 Nov '99

Hi all (bringing a conversation between Jamie Clark and yours truly out into the light) On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jamie Clark wrote: > Simon, > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Simon Blake wrote: > > > > Any change in your policy of not publishing a route policy? :) > > > > "policy" is a bit strong :-). It has always been my intent to publish a > > No offence intended. and absolutely none taken. > > route policy, but time is pressing, and Clear are the only ISP on Citylink > > that consistantly ask for same. Everytime I sit down to learn what's > > involved and get a policy loaded, something else crops up that appears > > more urgent. :-( I'm happy to try and bump it up the priority list, if it > > will encourage more ISP's to peer. > > WIX has obviously worked well without filters so far. It comes and goes. Generally, it works fine, and that's probably a reflection on the stability of the NZ net, or at least, the bit that peers in wellington. In general, it's changes (additions of new peers) that can cause temporary hiccups (Actrix advertising 4000 prefixes yesterday being a good example). > It is certainly tempting to forgo the safety measures and peer anyway > - however I suspect that some day it will become necessary to have the > WIX route policy in some form of database. (?) maybe, perhaps. Absolutely, especially as WIX rises in importance as a major peering point in NZ, rather than as a "backup" peering point, which has been it's role until now. > IMHO it is a potential security risk if you cannot control which routes > you choose to learn from your neighbours. It would be possible for a WIX > customer with evil intentions to advertise a longer prefix into our > network and steal our customer's traffic (or any other WIX ISP's traffic > for that matter). Hmmm (evil ideas spring to mind) It may seem a bit odd, but this has been one of my pet *aims* for WIX! Contrary to popular belief, Citylink doesn't have infinite network capacity :-). Therefore, providing a mechanism where customers of ISP's can transit data directly to other customers of ISP's, without having that data split horizon through one or two ISP routers is increasingly desirable. That's why we have a setup where a little Citylink customer with a /28 from their ISP and no ASN can still peer with the route server and exchange data directly with other Citylink users. > It would not be sufficient for us to deny these advertisements either - as > they may very well be legitimate (multihoming). Having said that (that I think allowing small Citylink customers to advertise long prefix routes directly is desirable), I'm all for restricting what the route server will accept from each client. My policy at the moment tends to vary, depending on the customer. If the peer is an ISP (ie, if they have their own ASN), then I assume they know what they're doing, and I don't filter incoming or outgoing updates, unless requested by the peer. If the peer has no ASN, then I assume that they're less clueful, and also that they're likely to have a small number of routes that change infrequently. Because those non ASN peers are much more likely to foul things up, I filter the updates I receive from them to only the routes they've told me they'll send. > Admittedly a policy database with automatic updates will not > necessarily prevent this - but at least there would be an audit trail > pointing to the offender. And that has to be a good thing. > With the current operational changes to RADB it looks like we will set up > our own database and have this mirrored by RADB. This won't happen until > next year though. The goal would be to automatically generate router BGP > configs from this database. > > If you're interested (and provided you don't do it first ;) I'm sure we > would be keen to pass on anything that might be useful. When I last looked at the RADb a few months ago, I mused that having route arbiters on WIX and/or APE might not be a bad thing, and would be a useful service for Citylink to provide in it's capacity as "neutral peering provider to the stars" :-). Seeing that Merit are planning to charge US$200 per year leads me to believe that it's an idea who's time may have come. Comments? Cheers Si --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Telstra NZ live on the APE
by Joe Abley 10 Nov '99

10 Nov '99

Hi all, A few minutes ago Telstra NZ exchanged its first routes with CLEAR and Plain Communications over the APE. The peering relationships are currently in test, and we expect a stable policy to be in place on the routers early next week. Many thanks to Phil Groom for doing most of the work, Chris Wedgwood and Matthew Grant for being available to peer at the drop of a hat, and Ben Martel for being generally a handy man to know. For future reference, Telstra NZ's Sky Tower router is numbered 192.203.154.32 on the exchange subnet, and has a clean 100M back to the data centre in Queen Street over dark fibre, backed up with DMR. Telstra are announcing routes from AS4763. Full route policy will be published shortly, probably in the RADB. Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Two new ISP's on WIX
by Simon Blake 08 Nov '99

08 Nov '99

Hi all Just a quick note - late last week XTRA joined WIX, and as of a few minutes ago IHUG is peering with the route server. By my reckoning, that makes 15 ISP's on Citylink, of which 14 are using WIX to peer in some fashion. Cheers Si --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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The New Zealand Network Operators' Group
by Donald Neal 07 Nov '99

07 Nov '99

The New Zealand Network Operators' Group The New Zealand Network Operators' Group (NZNOG) has neither a king, a president nor a formal membership. At present it consists of the subscribers to this mailing list, which anyone is free to join. (At last count the list had a little over one 110 subscribers, with the count growing slightly each month.) The NZNOG mailing list is provided through a server at The University of Waikato, and is administered by an employee of Telecom NZ Ltd. Neither of these organisations (nor the administrator) is responsible for its content. NZNOG Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy The NZNOG mailing list exists to provide a forum for the exchange of technical information and the discussion of implementation issues that require cooperation among New Zealand network service providers. In order to continue to provide a useful forum for discussion of relevant technical issues, users of the list are asked to respect the following guidelines. 1. Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues. 2. Discussion related to meetings of network service providers is appropriate. 3. Discussion unrelated to these topics is not appropriate. 4. Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged. 5. Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack of respect for other participants are unacceptable. 6. Blatant product or service marketing is unacceptable. 7. Postings of a political, philosophical or legal nature are discouraged. 8. Postings to the list should be in ASCII or MIME encoded as text/plain. Attachments should not be sent to the list. To present a document, a suitable URL may be referred to. For documents of general interest, the use of proprietary file formats is discouraged. 9. Breaches of list etiquette should be dealt with privately with the offending list user, and should not result in complaints being sent to the list. Mailing List Archives A full archive is available at http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/nznog/ To search the archive, see http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/search.html (and remember to select nznog). Subscribing to the List To subscribe to the NZNOG list, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz, where the body of the message reads subscribe nznog There are at present no restrictions on who may subscribe to the list, or even on who may post to the list. Digest Mailing List If you don't wish to receive postings as they are sent, you can instead subscribe to the nznog-digest mailiing list, on which all postings are sent out in a single "digest" every couple of days. Other Activities NZNOG does not at present have other regular activities than this mailing list, though some Auckland subscribers have been known to meet over beer. Donald Neal NZNOG Mailing List Owner/Administrator/Muggins -- Donald Neal | HTTP is everywhere. It could not be so Service Platforms | pervasive without being good. Centralised Maintain and Support | Therefore, HTTP is good. Telecom NZ Ltd | - RFC2324 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Connections to APE (plus changes)
by Richard Naylor 01 Nov '99

01 Nov '99

In the next week or so the 2 switches at APE will be replaced with a more capable Cisco switch, through the generosity of Cisco NZ. While this is taking place there will be a smal outage on the APE switch. Users will notice an outage of less than 1 minute while the new switch learns mac addresses etc. At the same time, cablers will be on site and available to connect up any parties interested in joining the exchange. Prospective users whose external connectivity has yet to arrive, can still be connected while the cabling is taking place - its easier for the installers to pull a bundle at one time. If you are interested in having cable put in place for a future connection, please contact me in the next week. thanks - rich richard.naylor(a)citylink.co.nz This mail message contains information that is confidential and which may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and erase this mail. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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web page with APE stuff on it
by Joe Abley 01 Nov '99

01 Nov '99

I thought it might be good to have some info about APE on a web page somewhere. So I threw this together: http://www.patho.gen.nz/ape/ It almost certainly contains at least _some_ lies; please let me know what they are (or, if you don't care, I'll just carry on spreading them :) Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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