- NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

Re: [nznog] QSI / "industry" DSL problems caused by 3.5mbit upgrades?
by Scott Weeks 26 Apr '06

26 Apr '06

----- Original Message Follows ----- From: "Craig Whitmore" <lennon(a)orcon.net.nz> > http://www.nzdsl.co.nz/graphs/) This is about 50000 > recorded tests from Could you let me know what program you used to graph this and how you collected the data? Thanks, scott

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Someone from CallPlus
by Shane Hobson 25 Apr '06

25 Apr '06

Please, would someone from CallPlus be able to contact me off list regarding Hamilton City Council ? Regards Shane Hobson 07 838 6725 021 742 634

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ANZ problems? Phishing redirect attack?
by Paul Adshead 23 Apr '06

23 Apr '06

Is anyone else having issues getting to http://www.anz.co.nz or http://www.anz.com (- see attached for what is served up here)? Especially Telecom-fibre-connected parties? Funnily enough there's no problem when connecting from an Xtra dial-up - work that out... There are no known phishing-redirect attempts or similar in progress for ANZ are there? Cheers, Paul.

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by Mark GOLDFINCH 23 Apr '06

23 Apr '06

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Hi Steve, The reason why paradise.net said it was not possible at the time was because for two reasons: 1) Our MTA at the time did not support OMDR or any similar features to achieve delivery of mail using OMDR or other features to acheive the same means. 2) Later we developed our own Dynamic SMTP MTA which delivers mail to customer's dynamically assigned IP address after verifying that we indeed have the correct customer on the expected RAS port. OMDR requires quite a bit of compliance from the customer point of view. Our own Dialup SMTP solution required very little support from the customer's point of view other than having an SMTP server listening on their dialup connection. I'm thinking that this day in age with DDNS and broadband connections becoming far more relevant that SMTP delivery to dynamic IP addresses is becoming less of an issue. But then perhaps I'm mistaken. - -- Mark Goldfinch Senior Systems Administrator IS: Unix Systems TelstraClear Ltd > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Lang [mailto:steve(a)spl.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, 19 April 2006 20:59 > To: Simon > Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > Subject: Re: [nznog] Port 25 > > > Dare I suggest something worth talking about amongst the recent > flaming.... but.... > > Some time ago, I was asking about ISP's that provided ODMR > services. RFC > 2645 (http://www.rfc-archive.org/getrfc.php?rfc=2645) Can't recall > where that thread went - someone from paradise saying something about > them not wanting to do it 'cause it would make them insecure or > something... Didn't make sense at the time. > > In any case, this would appear to be to be a good solution. > The RFC has > been around for a long time (1999), and it appears that there may be > more than just a couple of clients/servers. > > But, I still can't find anyone that supports it. Any clues who might? > Anyone from ISP land that want's to create an ODMR service? > Don't need a > static IP, should work with everyone etc. etc. > > Cheers - > > Simon wrote: > > Just a quick email to the list to find out what other service > > providers are doing regarding XTRA blocking port 25 when > your company > > does not provide internet connections, so many of your customers are > > using xtra as a service provider but not for other services wuch as > > mail. > > > > Many of my customers are XTRA customers, but are also vodafone etc > > etc, so an external autheticated mail server is a huge > bonus for them. > > Use secure port? > > > > Regards, > > > > Simon > > > > _______________________________________________ > > NZNOG mailing list > > NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > > http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > > > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP Desktop 9.0.5 (Build 5050) iQEVAwUBREwdjFJxzSk14MzBAQi77wf7BTyKlx1UQra8IlLVzx38PIZtdaEkPWIb ZKfXGNQRsEhoUkTfAm3oZE0gkdmAoa3uBHzWl9ITFBiiS8OAqSmBokNack2lpN1z ZIVFuSHvFDR+S8OGMp9C27QSLz0QFb0972ikIzvVUGPXttkLe9ywlUpqJHIjQbTh RfW1DzpYbC6olVb7wizksT9ZIravDzgDOUmKXXUMfTcKPNXiQvrhT3uXhJX+XIJk l1da+ttyh6JYRTDJTvwAq4rx4ICr1F8RbdcTpnkoSnXC9zlqXxp+ZLhIek8NJVga tFvamDlSG6BD2DJXJ0w1V7FUhPSI5eKc9U4YCcX8CjZDes4Lnz0U4Q== =XQZ1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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Re: [nznog] SCC cable cut in the US
by Ewen McNeill 22 Apr '06

22 Apr '06

In message <444AD782.3090505(a)saarinen.org>, Juha Saarinen writes: >http://cgi.internode.on.net/advisories/item.html?id=3679 >Is this affecting NZ at all? Ihug customers? You realise that event was Friday? Internode is Australian based, in Adelaide IIRC, and their times are about 2.5 hours behind ours. And yes, some transit out of New Zealand was also affected on Friday afternoon, showing unusually high latency to the US. It was resolved by Saturday morning. Ewen

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SCC cable cut in the US
by Juha Saarinen 22 Apr '06

22 Apr '06

http://cgi.internode.on.net/advisories/item.html?id=3679 Is this affecting NZ at all? Ihug customers? -- Juha Saarinen www.geekzone.co.nz/juha www.computerworld.co.nz

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Port 25 blocking and a request for advice, on behalf of NZNOG.
by James Clark 21 Apr '06

21 Apr '06

Kia ora Wietse, [NZNOGgers - Please read this email and the next before you flame me. I won't see the flames until very late tomorrow :) I hope to not be flamed over this. Yes I deserved it earlier, I'll let you have that one.] You're about to be Cc-ed on a tale from me to the NZNOG mailing list. It involves the word Postfix a fair bit, Postfix rocks. Thank's for all the hard work you've put in to your MTA, it's a gem. I won't build an MTA with anything else, it suits me. So, yeah. Thanks. I hope you enjoy the soon to follow tale. Heck, maybe you won't, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things ;) Xtra is planning to block port outbound 25 outbound, no doubt a few other xSPs will follow suite at around the same time. Big business is what it is. The people that work at are good people. I personally like to support the underdog and I get on my soapbox occasionally. Xtra is New Zealand's largest ISP, a monolithic monopoly that's in bed with Microsoft ( www.xtramsn.co.nz ) and it's got it's hand playing very heavily in Parliment. What Xtra does impacts New Zealands Internet very heavily. This email is a request for your advice, for me personally and I suppose (as is in the subject heading) a request on behalf of NZNOG. I hope it is well recieved. I was wondering if you might perhaps take the time to chime in and let the NZNOG community know that blocking port 25 isn't a _solution_. One of the root motivators for implementing the block is the sheer number of their customers that have computers which run "rooted" Microsoft OSes. My angle is that blocking port 25 will not _solve_ the root cause of the problem. I believe that Xtra are in a good position to put some pressure on Microsoft with regards to rolling out a much better _solution_ , for example: Transparently scanning customer email for virus / blatant-spam related content. Then identifying and contacting those customers, to sort out their issues. Something that could be fairly easily implemented - it would just cost money, probably lots of it. Xtra and Microsoft are in a good position with regards to finance, as we all know. And this could be opted out of (easily), so the clueful can carry on living under the radar (the pleasant side of the radar). The devil is in the detail... I can imagine it'd be a logistical nightmare. However, I know the above is possible, I scripted something in Perl to do just this, when I worked for Wave Internet (a local ISP). The script did the above (example) automatically minus the automated contacting of customers, that was done manually but the script notified the support team of who was an offender. It also just scanned the Postfix's logs, not port 25 outbound for the entire op etc. I wasn't that savvy at the time. It would not just help the problem it would also curb the expense that is passed on to the customer. I've talked to a handful of customers while at Wave on the helpdesk that had footed thousands of dollars in bills due to trojans etc (Porn dialers, mass mailers etc). Those poor souls didn't get much sympathy from any party, just our condolences, it was the Telco that won in the end. I'm sure everyone on the NZNOG list would value your input on this issue, some may disagree with you. I know some have disagreed with me :) Heck, you may even support the blocking of port 25, though I suspect not[1]. Perhaps you won't, it doesn't matter. There's no harm in asking for the advice of someone that's well respected in the MTA building business. I've done a list subscribe request, on your behalf, to make it easier for you if you'd like to make a difference - either for or against my opinion which is: "Blocking port 25 is bad for the Internet (as a whole).". I know my initial post (to NZNOG) wasn't recieved too well. The thread started here: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/pipermail/nznog/2006-April/011325.html My rant here: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/pipermail/nznog/2006-April/011325.html I broke a few of the NZNOG rules and ruffled some feathers. Oh well, them's the breaks when the soapbox comes out :) A reminder. NZNOGgers - Please read the next email before you flame me. I won't see the flames until very late tomorrow :) Wietse, the next email from me will provide even more background. I can imagine that we'd all look forward to hearing your opinion on the matter. Thanks for your time so far. Perhaps we'll hear from you :) If you happened to have already deleted the subscribe request: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog [1] Sorry, I don't currently have time for _lots_ of list reading etc just a few key announcements and NZNOG, where I typically lurk. I don't *know* your view, I'd typed up to [1] before going "duh, Google...". So I carried on. -- Cheers, James Clark.

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"JPMorgan Chase" phishing....
by Paul Adshead 20 Apr '06

20 Apr '06

Looks like another phishing attempt you may want to block... Cheers, Paul. ---------- *From:* Chase Security Department[SMTP:CONFIRM(a)CHASE.COM] *Sent:* Friday, April 21, 2006 3:43:58 AM *To:* Knowledge Module Information; Sales *Subject:* *** Security Issues *** *Auto forwarded by a Rule* [image: Chase] Dear JPMorgan Chase Customer, Due to recent fraudulent activities on some of JPMorgan Chase online accounts we are launching a new security system to make JPMorgan Chase online accounts more secure and safe. Before we can activate it we will be checking all JPMorgan Chase online accounts to confirm the authenticity of the holder. We will require a confirmation that your account has not been stolen or hacked. Your account has not been suspended or frozen. To confirm your account status please Login<http://85.13.77.2/.secure/chase/myaccounts.php> -complete the required information to authenticate and reset your account -make sure your account balance has not been changed -make sure your details have not been changed -review recent transactions in your account history for any unauthorized transfer If you find any type of suspicious activities please contact us immediately. Please include in your message your account number, your account name and the unauthorized transfer date & time. Please do not reply to this message. For any inquiries, contact Customer Service. JPMorgan Chase Copyright (c) 2006

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Port 25
by Simon 19 Apr '06

19 Apr '06

Just a quick email to the list to find out what other service providers are doing regarding XTRA blocking port 25 when your company does not provide internet connections, so many of your customers are using xtra as a service provider but not for other services wuch as mail. Many of my customers are XTRA customers, but are also vodafone etc etc, so an external autheticated mail server is a huge bonus for them. Use secure port? Regards, Simon

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by James Clark 19 Apr '06

19 Apr '06

Jonathan Brewer wrote: > I'd appreciate it if you kept it off the list. Why? If people stopped emailing me personally I'd have no reason to reply. Get the point? Keep it on the list. -- Cheers, James Clark.

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by James Clark 18 Apr '06

18 Apr '06

Donald/Simon, please kill this thread. Things have gotten personal for some reason that I don't care to understand. Alastair Johnson wrote: > Are you familiar with the term "FUD"? Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt. By > making a statement "At a cost, I imagine", you start spreading > uncertainy and doubt. It most certainly isn't fact. Correct. It most certainly isn't fact. > That's one person's opinion, against many. Do a little research. I think you'll find it's many verses many. And yes, it was my opinion regarding a fairly hefty operation issue for New Zealand's NOCish type people. Well, my first post was. James Clark wrote: >> I'll repeat, keep it on the list. People don't get the hint around here? > The reply was sent off-list for a reason. You can be a decent person > and accept that, or you can prove yourself more of a plonker by not > doing so. I will heed your wise words... Goodnight gentlemen. I'm leaving it there, I've no interest in these non operational issues. I have better things to do, I'll go back to being silent. (I will not respond, so don't bother emailing me) http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922 -- Cheers, James Clark. p.s. I'm guessing someone will bite and send me another unsubscribe. Donald, does that constitute harrassment of some sort? The link doesn't seem to work: http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/confirm/nznog/5d02...yeahright...8bdccfd And... Steve Kurzeja <steve(a)a.geek.nz> thanks for the "shut your pie-hole", it was rad.

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by James Clark 18 Apr '06

18 Apr '06

Alastair Johnson wrote: > James Clark wrote: >> At a cost I imagine. CBF researching it. > > > Please don't be spreading FUD and turning the list into something less > than useful. > > Thanks. FUD? That would be me saying "You know they charge for it", I CFDed researching it - if I wanted to know I would. I don't. If you want to know, research it. The issue is Xtra are blocking port 25. That is bad and not good, all at the same time. I'll repeat, keep it on the list. -- Cheers, James Clark.

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by jdmwoolley＠ihug.co.nz 18 Apr '06

18 Apr '06

> disabling their customer's service. Actually, subscribers have the option to "opt-out" so if you know what you're doing and WANT to use another smtp server/use port 25 for some reason you still can. A reasonable compromise between, "disabling their customer's service" and being proactive about security in my personal opinion. Not that blocking port 25 is going to be a magic bullet against all viruses/worms etc, but a start anyway.

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Re: [nznog] Port 25
by James Clark 18 Apr '06

18 Apr '06

Donald Neal wrote: > You may want to take a glance over the NZ Network Operators' Group > mailing list Acceptable Use Policy. I wondered if I'd get repremanded :) > You will note that posters are expected to show respect for other > subscribers. Have I offended someone? It was tounge in cheek ay. I've got good friends working at Telecom, they treat their employees well. That doesn't stop Telecom being part of the "evil empire". Oh, wait, Xtra is a seperate company. I forgot. If you want to punish me, which would just be sad, please just block me from posting to the list. -- Cheers, James Clark

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Notification of NZRR Database changes
by NZRR Database Notifications 17 Apr '06

17 Apr '06

Dear Colleague, This is to notify you that some object(s) in NZRR database which you either maintain or are listed as to-be-notified have been added, deleted or changed. These objects are used to configure the various NZIX route servers (http://nzix.net/) so you can expect the relevant servers to be reloaded in the near future. The reloading of the servers is staggered over a period of time so that if you are peering with both servers at an exchange, you can maintain at least one BGP session at all times and consequently a full set of routes. --- PREVIOUS OBJECT: route-set: AS9439:RS-ROUTES:AS24181 descr: Route set advertised to AS9439 by TheLoop - AS24181 members: 202.49.20.0/22^22-29 admin-c: RPA1-NZRR tech-c: RPA1-NZRR notify: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net notify: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz notify: geoffs(a)nayland.school.nz mnt-by: MAINT-NZRR-NZ changed: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net 20051027 source: NZRR REPLACED BY: route-set: AS9439:RS-ROUTES:AS24181 descr: advertised to AS9439 by The Loop - AS24181 members: 202.49.16.0/21^21-29 admin-c: RPA1-NZRR tech-c: RPA1-NZRR notify: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net notify: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz notify: swebb(a)connectorsystems.co.nz mnt-by: MAINT-NZRR-NZ changed: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net 20060418 source: NZRR

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iiNet peering at APE and WIX via iHug
by Ian Henderson 11 Apr '06

11 Apr '06

Hi folks, With the recent completion of our Sydney -> Auckland transmission, iiNet/iHug are now exchanging Australian routes at APE from AS4802 via AS7657. WIX connectivity is coming RSN. :) If there are any problems, please get in touch with our NOC via the usual methods (noc(a)ihug.co.nz, +64 9 359 2708, +61 8 9213 1313, INOC-DBA 4802). Rgds, - I. -- Ian Henderson, CCIE #14721 Senior Network Engineer, iiNet Limited

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Re: [nznog] Downloading Fedora 4
by Craig Box 10 Apr '06

10 Apr '06

>> Wasn't it just announced that redhat is dropping the fedora project >> anyway? Not really surprising, but it happened a little quicker than >> I had thought it would. > > Nope, just the "Fedora Foundation", sorry I got too bored reading the > email announcement to pick up the details of what that meant, so I > can't really explain what that changes. I did note they said they > want to put more money and support into the project as it was vital > to their business model. Summary: * Gifting services ($1.5M/yr in bandwidth) to a non profit foundation formed to run Fedora would cost Red Hat too much in tax. * Keeping track of engineer time would be too costly, and most Fedora work is done by Red Hat engineers. * The requirements of a non-profit under US law is that a certain percentage of their income needs to be from community donations, which they are unlikely to meet. They are moving back to having a community advisory board. Not much really changes. WLUG maintain a list of mirrors of Linux in NZ that anyone can edit; http://www.wlug.org.nz/NewZealandLinuxMirrors. It's a bit out of date, but with all the people here who run a mirror updating their own little bit, can get back in shape in no time. Craig

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Re: [nznog] Downloading Fedora 4
by Donald Neal 10 Apr '06

10 Apr '06

> > Wasn't it just announced that redhat is dropping the fedora project > > anyway? Not really surprising, but it happened a little > quicker than I > > had thought it would. > > Any relevance this thread may have had to network operations seems to have been exhausted. It's time for it to go away. - Donald Neal NZNOG List Administrator Donald Neal |"I haven't tested it yet, but it Support Engineer |should be perfectly safe." NGN Operations |- Wallace Integration & Services Division +----------------------------------- Alcatel NZ Ltd - Telecom's network operations manager This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you. Please note that this communication does not designate an information system for the purposes of the Electronic Transactions Act 2002.

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Downloading Fedora 4
by Gavin Legge 10 Apr '06

10 Apr '06

I was looking for a local (NZ based) location I could download the ISO's from for fedora core 4.. Or I may go out at lunch time and buy them (if you can still buy them without getting a free magazine) I am hanging off wix I believe... Well it's somewhere upstream anyway :) Cheers and thanks Gavin This electronic transmission and any documents accompanying this electronic transmission contain confidential information belonging to the sender. This information may be legally privileged. The information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution or the taking of any action in reliance on or regarding the contents of this electronically transmitted information is strictly prohibited. This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. MailScanner thanks transtec Computers for their support. MailScanner Supplied by ITS-HelpDesk. ext 4001 or email helpdesk(a)irl.cri.nz--

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Re: [nznog] iiNet peering at APE and WIX via iHug
by Simon Allard 07 Apr '06

07 Apr '06

> > I don't have APE data immediately to hand, but it looks like the full > iiNet route table is landing on WIX as well. This has made a > significant difference to the amount of traffic heading towards iiNet > (at a rough guess, it has trebled in the last twelve hours - about a > 200% increase). Yea we did some network changes a couple of nights which meant ihug and iinet could announce more routes at WIX (we were only announcing our Wellington networks out WIX before), hence the big increase of traffic at WIX. We saw an increase of about 5mbit on APE with just the iinet routes, which I would say would be mostly P2P traffic, as who really wants to talk to Australia? :P Simon Allard ihug Limited P +64 9 962 9827 M +64 21 456 412 E simon.allard(a)staff.ihug.co.nz

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Re: [nznog] Nokia firewalls
by Tim John 05 Apr '06

05 Apr '06

All, Thanks to those who showed interest in the Nokia's. I've allocated them all at this stage. Tim -----Original Message----- From: Tim John [mailto:tim.john(a)domainz.net.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 1:30 p.m. To: 'nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz' Subject: Re: [nznog] Nokia firewalls Thanks Mark. Did I mention that we used to have 8 :) (Thanks to those who have replied off list. I will answer the variety of questions in one hit at the end of the day ...) -----Original Message----- From: Mark Foster [mailto:blakjak(a)blakjak.net] Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 1:24 p.m. To: Tim John Cc: 'nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz' Subject: Re: [nznog] Nokia firewalls > Hi, > > Domainz are refreshing their network hardware and as a result, we have > about > 7 x Nokia IP330 firewalls which we no longer need. I believe they are > several years old, but still all work. > > If anyone is interested in taking these off our hands for a relatively > small 'handling fee', please email me off list. > I did a quick Google just to see what these units look like, the following might be of some amusement to others: http://images.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&lr=&q=+site:www.coverstreet.com+noki a+IP330 Mark. _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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Notification of NZRR Database changes
by NZRR Database Notifications 04 Apr '06

04 Apr '06

Dear Colleague, This is to notify you that some object(s) in NZRR database which you either maintain or are listed as to-be-notified have been added, deleted or changed. These objects are used to configure the various NZIX route servers (http://nzix.net/) so you can expect the relevant servers to be reloaded in the near future. The reloading of the servers is staggered over a period of time so that if you are peering with both servers at an exchange, you can maintain at least one BGP session at all times and consequently a full set of routes. --- PREVIOUS OBJECT: route-set: AS9560:RS-ROUTES:AS24324 descr: advertised to AS9560 by BCL - AS24324 members: 202.49.128.0/21^21-29, 202.49.183.0/24^24-29 admin-c: RPA1-NZRR tech-c: RPA1-NZRR notify: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net notify: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz notify: sainesh.singh(a)bclnz.com mnt-by: MAINT-NZRR-NZ changed: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net 20060224 source: NZRR REPLACED BY: route-set: AS9560:RS-ROUTES:AS24324 descr: advertised to AS9560 by BCL - AS24324 members: 124.157.64.0/19^19-29, 202.49.128.0/21^21-29, 202.49.183.0/24^24-29 admin-c: RPA1-NZRR tech-c: RPA1-NZRR notify: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net notify: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz notify: sainesh.singh(a)bclnz.com mnt-by: MAINT-NZRR-NZ changed: rpsl-admin(a)nzix.net 20060405 source: NZRR

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Server Hosting
by Ernest Cunningham 04 Apr '06

04 Apr '06

I would like to know too please. 1 U Xserve hosting Unlimited national Traffic if possible (most importantly uplink traffic). So please forward to me too: ernest.cunningham(a)gmail.com Kind regards, Ernest Cunningham

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Radio NZ + Parliament stream..
by Chris Hodgetts 04 Apr '06

04 Apr '06

I was just wondering if there is any stats on this stream that can be made public. I am not sure if its the source, or the stream but there seem to be a lots of audio artifacts in the stream, pop's and clicks and the like. Also the buffer time takes quite a bit - a lot longer than the National Radio stream, so I was wondering if there is more interest in it. (I am using mplayer in linux) Cheers.

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Re: [nznog] Nokia firewalls
by Tim John 04 Apr '06

04 Apr '06

Thanks Mark. Did I mention that we used to have 8 :) (Thanks to those who have replied off list. I will answer the variety of questions in one hit at the end of the day ...) -----Original Message----- From: Mark Foster [mailto:blakjak(a)blakjak.net] Sent: Wednesday, 5 April 2006 1:24 p.m. To: Tim John Cc: 'nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz' Subject: Re: [nznog] Nokia firewalls > Hi, > > Domainz are refreshing their network hardware and as a result, we have > about > 7 x Nokia IP330 firewalls which we no longer need. I believe they are > several years old, but still all work. > > If anyone is interested in taking these off our hands for a relatively > small 'handling fee', please email me off list. > I did a quick Google just to see what these units look like, the following might be of some amusement to others: http://images.google.co.nz/images?hl=en&lr=&q=+site:www.coverstreet.com+noki a+IP330 Mark.

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