*much snippage* Anton, you wrote: "Given the general difficulties in resolving problems with various ISP/Carriers it is sometimes a fact that the only place you can learn what you need to is here." This is all very well, but NZNOG (and other NOG's) are continually frustrated by people who raise issues amongst the Network Operators community, without first 'using normal channels'. 'Airing Dirty Laundry' on NZNOG should be reserved for when normal, routine channels have failed (and where the effects are significant enough to warrant pushing the issue infront of several hundred unaffected folks, the media, their competitors, your boss, etc etc...) I Must encourage people to use the 'direct approach' first and foremost... ISP's and network operators on both sides operate helpdesks and support staff for that reason. They can escalate upwards (and by all means encourage them to do so if they don't take that initiative themselves!) www.nznog.org presents Network Operator POC's for most of the big players. These are things that should happen prior to a post to NZNOG, most of the time at least. Mark.