Re: NZNOG agenda Multicast Activation Workshop
Looking at specs of the Redback (RADIUS) it looks like unicast and multicast have different accounting attributes, therefore Telecom or any ISP for that matter, would in theory be able have differential rates. BTW. if you really want multicast widely available within NZ - you need to help Telecom with a business offering first - a residential service would surely follow :-) Perhaps an ISP or national/global corporate could put their thinking cap on and convince Telecom of how much money they can make (or save) together... As already said - the technology is there - there's just no guaranteed revenue stream. One good start would be having a multicast-only stream (albeit limited in content) available on JSG to enable users to set up their clients properly - most users don't know or even care if it's unicast or multicast, let alone how to get multicast going. ###################################################################### Attention: This e-mail message is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author. ######################################################################
On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:42:32AM +1300, Vance McIndoe wrote:
BTW. if you really want multicast widely available within NZ - you need to help Telecom with a business offering first - a residential service would surely follow :-)
Good one :) There's nothing to stop anybody distributing multicast content right now, using tunnels. The ISPs to which multicast consumers connect don't need to necessarily be involved. If there's really such a huge demand for multicast services, how come people aren't already using them?
Perhaps an ISP or national/global corporate could put their thinking cap on and convince Telecom of how much money they can make (or save) together...
Hilarious :) Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 08:42:32AM +1300, Vance McIndoe wrote:
BTW. if you really want multicast widely available within NZ - you need to help Telecom with a business offering first - a residential service would surely follow :-)
Good one :)
There's nothing to stop anybody distributing multicast content right now, using tunnels. The ISPs to which multicast consumers connect don't need to necessarily be involved.
If there's really such a huge demand for multicast services, how come people aren't already using them?
Perhaps an ISP or national/global corporate could put their thinking cap on and convince Telecom of how much money they can make (or save) together...
Hilarious :)
Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
How about we take the following tac then. 1) Secure some content. If there is no content then this is a waste of time anyway. It sounds like we have atleast some content availible in the BBC World stuff. 2) Make this content availible at both WIX and APE. 3) Allow people to connect to this content via tunnels. Sure it would be cool if every ISP in the country got on the bandwagon and you could just IGMP join from your modem or dsl. But it's just not going to happen. If the ISP's don't already see the feature being used then they are unlikely to put time into something 'just in case'. If on the otherhand, we get good content that people want to see. And we make the tunneling operation easy to set up. Then we might get a large audience. ISP's might notice this data crossing their network and start to engineer it so that the multicast (rather than many unicast tunnels) can penetrate further into their networks. Just a thought anyway. And if not, well then we still have it on WIX and APE or anyone who wants it. How does that sound? On Wed, Jan 16, 2002 at 02:56:59PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote: - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Dean Pemberton wrote:
How about we take the following tac then.
1) Secure some content. If there is no content then this is a waste of time anyway. It sounds like we have atleast some content availible in the BBC World stuff.
I could have a word with IDG about this...
2) Make this content availible at both WIX and APE.
Yes, but the whole plan needs to be advertised somehow.
3) Allow people to connect to this content via tunnels. Sure it would be cool if every ISP in the country got on the bandwagon and you could just IGMP join from your modem or dsl. But it's just not going to happen.
Oh. Bugger. Have a feeling this rules out a large amount of Windows peeps. The problem with running a *NIX-oriented service is that not very many people can hear let alone see multimedia content on their terminals (oh, hi Joe!). -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:10:12AM +1300, Juha Saarinen wrote:
2) Make this content availible at both WIX and APE.
Yes, but the whole plan needs to be advertised somehow.
Lets get it going first =)
3) Allow people to connect to this content via tunnels. Sure it would be cool if every ISP in the country got on the bandwagon and you could just IGMP join from your modem or dsl. But it's just not going to happen.
Oh. Bugger. Have a feeling this rules out a large amount of Windows peeps. The problem with running a *NIX-oriented service is that not very many people can hear let alone see multimedia content on their terminals (oh, hi Joe!).
I want to hear solutions not more problems Juha! =) =) There must be some way to do this. If not then the windows users loose. But this has been trying to happen for so long (Well James has been tearing his hear out to get it to go for ages anyway) that it's probably worth doing anyway. Dean - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Lets get it going first =)
Parallel execution of ideas is much more fun.
I want to hear solutions not more problems Juha! =) =)
There must be some way to do this. If not then the windows users loose. But this has been trying to happen for so long (Well James has been tearing his hear out to get it to go for ages anyway) that it's probably worth doing anyway.
Well, as Mike the AWACS guy said, multicast is working on Xtra modem connections. Have a nasty feeling that the chaps running IP.net or whatever the Jetstream network is called these days would rather gouge their eyes out with a blunt teaspoon than enable multicast on it. -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Lets get it going first =)
Maybe some examples about "how to do it" on certain hardware. Common Day these days people are using Cisco/Junipers for Routers And for NASes Cisco 5200/5300/higher, Ascend 4000/6000/TNT, USR Gear, anything else And of course Linux/*bsd Anyone want to give example working Examples? And maybe James wants to put them up on his site? (www.mbone.net.nz) Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Intenet - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Yep. Everyone has come out and said "Dean, But it's already at Wix/ape" Ok then. Well lets get a HowTo/FAQ on how I can set up a tunnel and watch stuff today. *waits eagerly to be told there already is one* I'm also more than keen to give Juniper examples to anyone who wants them. Contact me at my Juniper existance[1] rather than this one. Thanks[2] Dean [1]dean(a)juniper.net [2]Thanks to James for reminding me that footnotes make you look cool =) On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 10:30:31AM +1300, Craig Whitmore (Orcon Internet) wrote:
Lets get it going first =)
Maybe some examples about "how to do it" on certain hardware.
Common Day these days people are using Cisco/Junipers for Routers And for NASes Cisco 5200/5300/higher, Ascend 4000/6000/TNT, USR Gear, anything else And of course Linux/*bsd
Anyone want to give example working Examples?
And maybe James wants to put them up on his site? (www.mbone.net.nz)
Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Intenet
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Yep. Everyone has come out and said "Dean, But it's already at Wix/ape"
Ok then. Well lets get a HowTo/FAQ on how I can set up a tunnel and watch stuff today.
*waits eagerly to be told there already is one*
The 1st thing to do to get Multicast enabled is find someone who will give you a connection. If you are connected via APE and have your own AS number (all of us I nope) then you can talk msdp quite easily to people @ APE You have to contact the right person @ Attica to be able to Multicast BGP with them as well. Working Example below.. I don't think I missed anything.. ----------------------------------------- interface FastEthernet 0/0/0 description APE Connection ip address 192.203.154.X 255.255.255.0 ip pim dense-mode no cdp enable interface FastEthernet0/0/1 description Internal Network ip address x.x.x.x x.x.x.x no ip route-cache distributed ip pim sparse-mode no cdp enable router bgp <ASNUMBER> address-family ipv4 multicast neighbor 192.203.154.46 activate neighbor 192.203.154.46 prefix-list <MYNETWORKS> out network x.x.x.0 exit-address-family ip msdp peer 192.203.154.46 connect-source Ethernet2/5 remote-as 9790 ip msdp description 192.203.154.46 Attica Mbone Connection ip msdp sa-request 192.203.154.46 ip msdp cache-sa-state ------------------------- ROUTER#show ip msdp summary MSDP Peer Status Summary Peer Address AS State Uptime/ Reset SA Peer Name Downtime Count Count 192.203.154.46 9790 Up 4w6d 110 1761 attica.ape.net.nz ROUTER#show ip bgp ipv4 multicast summary Neighbor V AS MsgRcvd MsgSent TblVer InQ OutQ Up/Down State/PfxRcd 192.203.154.46 4 9790 351667 152039 1496570 0 0 4w6d 3690 Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Internet http://www.orcon.net.nz - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Yep. Everyone has come out and said "Dean, But it's already at Wix/ape"
Ok then. Well lets get a HowTo/FAQ on how I can set up a tunnel and watch stuff today.
*waits eagerly to be told there already is one*
The 1st thing to do to get Multicast enabled is find someone who will give you a connection. If you are connected via APE and have your own AS number (all of us I nope) then you can talk msdp quite easily to people @ APE
You have to contact the right person @ Attica to be able to Multicast BGP with them as well.
Working Example below.. I don't think I missed anything.. ----------------------------------------- interface FastEthernet 0/0/0 description APE Connection ip address 192.203.154.X 255.255.255.0 ip pim dense-mode no cdp enable
interface FastEthernet0/0/1 description Internal Network ip address x.x.x.x x.x.x.x no ip route-cache distributed ip pim sparse-mode no cdp enable
router bgp <ASNUMBER> address-family ipv4 multicast neighbor 192.203.154.46 activate neighbor 192.203.154.46 prefix-list <MYNETWORKS> out network x.x.x.0 exit-address-family
ip msdp peer 192.203.154.46 connect-source Ethernet2/5 remote-as 9790 ip msdp description 192.203.154.46 Attica Mbone Connection ip msdp sa-request 192.203.154.46 ip msdp cache-sa-state
------------------------- ROUTER#show ip msdp summary MSDP Peer Status Summary Peer Address AS State Uptime/ Reset SA Peer Name Downtime Count Count 192.203.154.46 9790 Up 4w6d 110 1761 attica.ape.net.nz
ROUTER#show ip bgp ipv4 multicast summary
Neighbor V AS MsgRcvd MsgSent TblVer InQ OutQ Up/Down State/PfxRcd 192.203.154.46 4 9790 351667 152039 1496570 0 0 4w6d 3690
Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Internet http://www.orcon.net.nz
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Not quite what I mean. I want to be able to be a customer of clueless ISP X who won't/can't do the stuff that you have mentioned. And I want to be able to unicast tunnel to a place where I can get this cool multicast content. If it was as easy as just getting all the ISP's to do the stuff you describe below, then it would be done already[1] =) Thanks Dean [1] In reality it is that easy. Oh and I just had to have a footnote On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:11:02AM +1300, Craig Whitmore (Orcon Internet) wrote: - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
And I want to be able to unicast tunnel to a place where I can get this cool multicast content.
The Setting up of a Multicast Tunnel is easy as well . I'll post one soon, A Cisco Config and a Linux Config. Using mrouted is not highly recommended these days IMHO for Multicast, so I use pimd on Linux and has worked every time I've used it. Would you be able to put any of this up on your site James?
If it was as easy as just getting all the ISP's to do the stuff you describe below, then it would be done already[1] =)
I dunno why ISP's don't do it. Out of all the ISP's @ APE, only 3 are connected :-( Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Internet - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Whats the ROI?
I dunno why ISP's don't do it. Out of all the ISP's @ APE, only 3 are connected :-(
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Whats the ROI?
I dunno why ISP's don't do it. Out of all the ISP's @ APE, only 3 are connected :-(
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In itself nothing. But if there is cool content and all of your customers start to use it. Then by enabling multicast rather than having them tunnel, you stand to save HUGE ammounts of bandwidth. And you can still bill the customers the same. =) Dean On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:39:31AM +1300, Mark Frater wrote: - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
In itself nothing.
But if there is cool content and all of your customers start to use it. Then by enabling multicast rather than having them tunnel, you stand to save HUGE ammounts of bandwidth.
And you can still bill the customers the same. =)
Good examples which would of saved heaps of bandwidth are KiwiFlatmates (in NZ) and Bigbrother (in Austrailia) Having 1 Multicast streaming coming into an ISP, instead of 100's watching the same thing would of been great. The only thing is, they have to broadcast multicast and be connected to the "mbone" in the 1st place Thanks Craig - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Good examples which would of saved heaps of bandwidth are KiwiFlatmates (in NZ) and Bigbrother (in Austrailia)
Having 1 Multicast streaming coming into an ISP, instead of 100's watching the same thing would of been great. The only thing is, they have to broadcast multicast and be connected to the "mbone" in the 1st place
IHUG Hosted KiwiFlatmates, We were very keen to multicast the streams to save our bandwidth, but we didn't really have the proccess's in place to handle it. Currently we multicast bFM and george FM streams (not sure if they are still working cause we were only playing around, and now that David Robb no longer works for us, its prolly not even maintained) We were also in the middle of testing multicast over modem at the time. In the end we enabled multicast by default for our customers but had to turn it off due to the fact the max's sent packets (pretty sure they were igmp) every so often causing peoples idle timeouts to fail. How many ISP's have enabled multicast for thier dialup users? IMHO Multicast is cool, but pointless for an ISP unless dialup users are enabled for multicast. - Simon Simon Allard (Senior Tool Monkey) IHUG Ph (09) 358-5067 Email: simon.allard(a)staff.ihug.co.nz These have been my opinions. If you don't like them, think up your own. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Simon Allard wrote:
IHUG Hosted KiwiFlatmates, We were very keen to multicast the streams to save our bandwidth, but we didn't really have the proccess's in place to handle it. Currently we multicast bFM and george FM streams (not sure if they are still working cause we were only playing around, and now that David Robb no longer works for us, its prolly not even maintained)
They're still running. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
In this context: ROI Multicast only works for a specific class of data - live broadcast or file, one-to-many simultaneously... So any multicast business model can not threaten the core Internet base business, it can only help... Clients must still pay for their connection... More Content - more client demand for service... More customers for the entire network... Enables live media service content to be delivered without stress on the Servers network. Thereby Enhances performance - no jitters - Forward error correction ( connectionless servers - protects the broadcast server from rogue client software ) Unicast servers a vulnerable... Less pressure on peering points... Michael Sutton www.awacs.co.nz
-----Original Message----- From: owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz]On Behalf Of Mark Frater Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2002 11:40 To: Craig Whitmore (Orcon Internet) Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: NZNOG agenda Multicast Activation Workshop
Whats the ROI?
I dunno why ISP's don't do it. Out of all the ISP's @ APE, only 3 are connected :-(
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On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Mark Frater wrote:
Whats the ROI?
For a (relatively) small resource cost, you get to bring in loads of content that's (arguably) of interest and/or use to your customer-base. JSR -- John S Russell | Smile Operations Manager | Nod Attica/Callplus NZ | Build it. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Cool. Now out of all the content that people have identified as being out there. How much of this is actually availible at the moment? Dean On Thu, Jan 17, 2002 at 11:34:16AM +1300, Craig Whitmore (Orcon Internet) wrote:
And I want to be able to unicast tunnel to a place where I can get this cool multicast content.
The Setting up of a Multicast Tunnel is easy as well . I'll post one soon, A Cisco Config and a Linux Config. Using mrouted is not highly recommended these days IMHO for Multicast, so I use pimd on Linux and has worked every time I've used it.
Would you be able to put any of this up on your site James?
If it was as easy as just getting all the ISP's to do the stuff you describe below, then it would be done already[1] =)
I dunno why ISP's don't do it. Out of all the ISP's @ APE, only 3 are connected :-(
Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Internet
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1) Secure some content. If there is no content then this is a waste of time anyway. It sounds like we have atleast some content availible in the BBC World stuff.
The Content on Multicat is there now, just its very boring to the end public (unless you call GeorgeFM, Nasa Videos and BFM Content) :-)
2) Make this content availible at both WIX and APE.
It already is @ APE & WIX
3) Allow people to connect to this content via tunnels. Sure it would be cool if every ISP in the country got on the bandwagon and you could just IGMP join from your modem or dsl. But it's just not going to happen.
From Modems, this is working right now for some ISP's for DSL, you have to
wait until Telecom does something. People on UNited Networks Fibre via IHUG and Orcon as far as I know can have it right now. Other systems (such as wireless carriers.. I have no idea if/when they are going to offer this??)
If the ISP's don't already see the feature being used then they are unlikely to put time into something 'just in case'.
Tunneling is a good option yes. but non-tunneled PIM Sparse/Dense /MSDP is alot nicer. Tunnel might be available from APE soon (see http://www.mbone.net.nz) Thanks Craig Whitmore Orcon Internet http://www.orcon.net.nz - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Vance McIndoe wrote:
As already said - the technology is there - there's just no guaranteed revenue stream. One good start would be having a multicast-only stream (albeit limited in content) available on JSG to enable users to set up their clients properly - most users don't know or even care if it's unicast or multicast, let alone how to get multicast going.
Vance! You have left the Borg! ;-) One question: are you talking about setting up multicast within the Jetstream Games context? If so, is it technically possible to be logged onto multiple (two/three) contexts at the same time? At the moment you can't / it's disallowed. -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 17 Jan 2002, Juha Saarinen wrote:
One question: are you talking about setting up multicast within the Jetstream Games context?
If so, is it technically possible to be logged onto multiple (two/three) contexts at the same time? At the moment you can't / it's disallowed.
You'd need a seperate ATM PVC, with a seperate virtual dialler - not much of a problem I would imagine on (for example) a Cisco 827 ADSL router, could be trickier on cheaper/nastier ones. Course, Telecom would have to have some incentive to do this. They certainly don't seem inclined to seperate domestic and international data charges or rate-caps at this time. JSR -- John S Russell | Smile Operations Manager | Nod Attica/Callplus NZ | Build it. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (10)
-
Craig Whitmore (Orcon Internet) -
David Robb -
Dean Pemberton -
J S Russell -
Joe Abley -
Juha Saarinen -
Mark Frater -
Mike Sutton [ awacs ] -
Simon Allard -
Vance McIndoe