At 11:15 8/01/02 +1300, Andy Linton wrote:
I think you're fighting a losing battle in many ways here.
Maybe so, but...
The model for advertising on the Internet was touted as 'ads on web pages' with click through etc. It's not exactly been a raging success - I'd hypothesise that these spammers you're upset about are the Satchi and Satchi of tomorrow. It's not going away and you have to learn to ignore it just like you have to ignore the ads on TV.
Here I disagree. I don't think anyone should need to learn to ignore spam with explicit pictures being shoved in their face every day. It's one thing to visit a website of your own free will and then see an advert you dont like, its quite another to receive it unsolicited. To use your own analogy its like TV advertisers being able to force you to watch their ads even when the TV is turned OFF. :) It's all too easy for people to throw their hands in the air and just give up in the face of what seems like a losing battle, but as soon as we do that, the spammers have won. Regards, Simon - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:28:55AM +1300, Simon Byrnand wrote:
To use your own analogy its like TV advertisers being able to force you to watch their ads even when the TV is turned OFF. :)
There are safeguards in place to prevent unacceptable material being pushed down your throat through the television. They seem to work quite well; I don't remember Oscar ever having his Wigglesvission interrupted by advertisements for pornography. If you accept e-mail as a viable channel for advertising, you need to find a way to police advertising standards. Sounds like a hard problem. Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Joe Abley wrote:
On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:28:55AM +1300, Simon Byrnand wrote:
To use your own analogy its like TV advertisers being able to force you to watch their ads even when the TV is turned OFF. :)
There are safeguards in place to prevent unacceptable material being pushed down your throat through the television. They seem to work quite well; I don't remember Oscar ever having his Wigglesvission interrupted by advertisements for pornography.
But there are times when it gets pretty close. I'll bet Oscar gets Wigglesvission interrupted by ads for toys, other consumer stuff and adult programs later in the evening that you might well prefer he didn't see.
If you accept e-mail as a viable channel for advertising, you need to find a way to police advertising standards. Sounds like a hard problem.
In NZ TV has 5 or so public channels and policing their advertising is non trivial. How many potential sources of email-direct advertising material on the net? How many legal jurisdictions? You bet it's a hard problem. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:49:41AM +1300, Andy Linton wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Joe Abley wrote:
On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 11:28:55AM +1300, Simon Byrnand wrote:
To use your own analogy its like TV advertisers being able to force you to watch their ads even when the TV is turned OFF. :)
There are safeguards in place to prevent unacceptable material being pushed down your throat through the television. They seem to work quite well; I don't remember Oscar ever having his Wigglesvission interrupted by advertisements for pornography.
But there are times when it gets pretty close. I'll bet Oscar gets Wigglesvission interrupted by ads for toys, other consumer stuff and adult programs later in the evening that you might well prefer he didn't see.
The point is that there are a finite, manageable number of people to police. That's not the case with e-mail, which has an effectively infinite number of people to police.
If you accept e-mail as a viable channel for advertising, you need to find a way to police advertising standards. Sounds like a hard problem.
In NZ TV has 5 or so public channels and policing their advertising is non trivial. How many potential sources of email-direct advertising material on the net? How many legal jurisdictions? You bet it's a hard problem.
Right. Sufficiently hard that it's difficult to see how it can ever be sufficiently well-policed to be considered as legitimate a channel for advertisers as the television is, I would say. Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 7 Jan 2002, Joe Abley wrote:
In NZ TV has 5 or so public channels and policing their advertising is non trivial. How many potential sources of email-direct advertising material on the net? How many legal jurisdictions? You bet it's a hard problem.
Right. Sufficiently hard that it's difficult to see how it can ever be sufficiently well-policed to be considered as legitimate a channel for advertisers as the television is, I would say.
Did I ever admit to this list as a whole that I used to work in Marketing for ihug? That was a year ago, and I still feel dirty. :) Besides that, talking of alarming spam trends - as well as graphical and explicit Asian spam I have been receiving a lot of "Thank you for signing up to our advertising list - reply if you want to be removed" messages I receive - Most of all I like the fact I receive them on my soa@ address. That is the most irritating thing - if I don't respond, am I consenting? if I do will they honour it, or rate my email address higher? -- Dylan Reeve - dylan(a)wibble.net It's just not cricket. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
make abuse@ reports to the people providing the guys service, and the guys hosting the relay - Ive had positive responses to emails directed to my webmaster@ and soa@ addresses on those grounds in the past... Both of those being obtained either by whois or by trolling my website looking for mailto links, since I dont use either login anywhere else... Never under any circumstances follow the 'unsubscribe' link for something you did not genuinely subscribe to - it just confirms your email address is active, and helps the spam propogate.... Ihug Marketting! HEX! HEX! Mark.
Did I ever admit to this list as a whole that I used to work in Marketing for ihug? That was a year ago, and I still feel dirty. :)
Besides that, talking of alarming spam trends - as well as graphical and explicit Asian spam I have been receiving a lot of "Thank you for signing up to our advertising list - reply if you want to be removed" messages I receive - Most of all I like the fact I receive them on my soa@ address.
That is the most irritating thing - if I don't respond, am I consenting? if I do will they honour it, or rate my email address higher?
Mark. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Dylan Reeve wrote:
That is the most irritating thing - if I don't respond, am I consenting? if I do will they honour it, or rate my email address higher?
No, and yes. Your address will be confirmed, and can be sold many times over. You will contribute to the Spameconomy and it will be all your fault. As usual. ;-) -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Juha Saarinen wrote:
That is the most irritating thing - if I don't respond, am I consenting? if I do will they honour it, or rate my email address higher?
No, and yes. Your address will be confirmed, and can be sold many times over. You will contribute to the Spameconomy and it will be all your fault. As usual. ;-)
I am not have been clear, my question was rhetorical. I know what happens it I reply to spam (or preview it in an HTML capable email client in many cases). It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation placed firmly between a rock and a hard-place. -- Dylan Reeve - dylan(a)wibble.net It's just not cricket. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
I'm thinking more and more about treating email the same way I treat BGP peering sessions. That being that you would be a moron to now have strict filters. I'm thinking of moving away from having an email ADDRESS that I care about, to making the domain the primary focus. So rather than having dean(a)flatnet.gen.nz post to mailing lists, I'd have nznog(a)deanpemberton.com post to the nznog mailing list. Then filter incoming mail to that address, so that if it was not a post to the nznog list it gets dumped. I already do this for things that need me to sign up with an email address. If I'm signing up to wibble then the email address they get is wibble(a)deanpemberton.com, and if I start getting spam on it then I can /dev/null it with no big hassle. Have to do a bit more thinking on the whole subject though - there are some areas that need to be ironed out. Dean On Tue, 2002-01-08 at 12:53, Dylan Reeve wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Juha Saarinen wrote:
That is the most irritating thing - if I don't respond, am I consenting? if I do will they honour it, or rate my email address higher?
No, and yes. Your address will be confirmed, and can be sold many times over. You will contribute to the Spameconomy and it will be all your fault. As usual. ;-)
I am not have been clear, my question was rhetorical. I know what happens it I reply to spam (or preview it in an HTML capable email client in many cases).
It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation placed firmly between a rock and a hard-place.
-- Dylan Reeve - dylan(a)wibble.net It's just not cricket.
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On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 01:06:43PM +1100, Dean Pemberton wrote: So rather than having dean(a)flatnet.gen.nz post to mailing lists, I'd have nznog(a)deanpemberton.com post to the nznog mailing list. Then filter incoming mail to that address, so that if it was not a post to the nznog list it gets dumped. I do this already for all my mailing lists, for example, I receive all nznog email via nznog(a)ml.cw.f00f.org --- and I can tell you from experience this wonderful scheme of mine casues many problems :( I also use this for routing, so if somebody wanted to be malicious, they could spam that address and it would get automagically routed and stored in my nznog mailing list --- at which time I move to me next greatest scheme :) Similarly, I use cw+<blah>@f00f.org sort of thing for online sites, to I can track if given email addresses leak and such like, all very crude right now, but I've considered something much more complex where I would email using <nouce>@cw-mail.f00f.org sort of thing so I could track individual messages and replies to them on a per message basis, but it hardly seems worth the effort. The biggest problem being that I can't post to mailing lists as cw(a)f00f.org unless they have a pst-only type list (which nznog does, but most lists do not). --cw - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 2002-01-08 at 13:06, Dean Pemberton wrote:
That being that you would be a moron to now have strict filters.
s/now/not/ Damn I always do that. =) Dean - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 8 Jan 2002, Simon Byrnand wrote:
To use your own analogy its like TV advertisers being able to force you to watch their ads even when the TV is turned OFF. :)
Not quite, you don't have to watch TV and neither do you have to be connected to the Internet (mmm, perhaps that last premise is just too hard for people on this list (:-))
It's all too easy for people to throw their hands in the air and just give up in the face of what seems like a losing battle, but as soon as we do that, the spammers have won.
That's what I'm saying about the people who run and own the Internet - they're the same people as the spammers - the lunatics have taken over the asylum! The people reading this list aren't in charge any more! Wake up! Get out before they lobotomise you as well! (:-) - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
You are so right. We do not control the direction that the internet is taking any more than the television engineers control what you see on TV. All they do is fix it when it breaks. Thats always the risk with something thats run as an anarchy. There is always a chance that an even stranger bunch of people are going to start to be in the majority. =) What am I saying? I mean "Buy more bandwidth, Buy more routers, everything is wonderful here" =) Dean On Tue, 2002-01-08 at 09:42, Andy Linton wrote:
It's all too easy for people to throw their hands in the air and just give up in the face of what seems like a losing battle, but as soon as we do that, the spammers have won.
That's what I'm saying about the people who run and own the Internet - they're the same people as the spammers - the lunatics have taken over the asylum! The people reading this list aren't in charge any more! Wake up! Get out before they lobotomise you as well! (:-)
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participants (8)
-
Andy Linton -
Chris Wedgwood -
Dean Pemberton -
Dylan Reeve -
Joe Abley -
Juha Saarinen -
Mark Foster -
Simon Byrnand