I realize that the APE and the WIX already exist but what I'm talking about is setting up a second peering point with different game rules. Namely Give as much as you take What you guys don't seem to understand is that if all the smaller ISP's Maxnet, IHUG, Slingshot, etc.... were all combined into one (big lump) that is probably way more end consumers than what Telstra has. And probably enough to get Telecom thinking as well ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Wicks" To: "'Tikiri Wicks'" Cc: "'nznog'" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [nznog] Peering Issue - Perhaps a solution I hate to mention the obvious Tikiri, but that already exsists, they are called APE and WIX. -----Original Message----- From: Tikiri Wicks [mailto:tcwicks(a)maxnet.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:13 a.m. To: Andy Linton; nznog Subject: [nznog] Peering Issue - Perhaps a solution Just a thought here Since most ISP's in NZ seem to be in agreement over this. What if instead of just blowing off steam: Everyone joins hands and sets up two (or more) peering exchanges. One in Auckland and one in Wellington. Then everyone simply drops all peering with Telstra (and / or Telecom if and where relevant) and interconnect through the two (or more) exchange points. The idea is that no one would pay for anything except for the cost of connectiong yourselves to the exchange points. Whether this be via tangent / united network / citylink / some big SDH radio link / microwave / a whole bunch of people running to the exchanges with buckets fileld with packets :) Peering would be voluntary for anyone and on the condition that each provides the same amount of bandwidth under the same conditions from their network to the exchange as they do from teh exchange to their network. That should keep players like Telecom and Telstra from trying to manipulate the market. If Telstra want to peer they would be forced to do so at the same conditions that apply to everyone else Also the costs of interconnectivity between the exchange points could be borne by the members based on some simple equation such as for example a ratio based on the amount of bandwidth with which they connect to the exchanges. Fill in the blanks here ________ Finally I would think that this would be a great opportunity for operators like tangent who have fibre running between the two (or more) hypothetical exchanges. Cheers Tikiri ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Linton" To: "nznog" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: [nznog] Peering at the APE and WIX - was Re: Irked with TelstraClear

I posted some notes yesterday about peering with the APE and WIX route servers and gave a link for application forms which wasn't as useful as it might have been. For reference the forms are at:

http://www.citylink.co.nz/cgi-bin/wixape.pl?tmpl=ape.tmpl http://www.citylink.co.nz/cgi-bin/wixape.pl?tmpl=wix.tmpl

Joe Abley posted some ideas on peering - one obvious one that he hasn't gone the whole distance with is that if many of the small/medium players work together they will be in a better position to negotiate peering with the two large telcos.

Consider the stories here:

http://www.tomsdomain.com/aesop/id17.htm

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Joe Abley wrote:

...

What you guys don't seem to understand is that if all the smaller ISP's Maxnet, IHUG, Slingshot, etc.... were all combined into one (big lump) that is probably way more end consumers than what Telstra has.

Maxnet, IHUG and Slingshot have more collective customers than Xtra, CLEAR Net and Paradise? Really?

Your pedantism often leads you astray from what matters, the point that was trying to be made. And if you wish to remove Xtra from your statement, as his reference was to Telstra, then Yes, there is a good possibility that collectively their customer base is of a comparable nature.

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003, Tikiri Wicks wrote:

I realize that the APE and the WIX already exist but what I'm talking about is setting up a second peering point with different game rules. Namely Give as much as you take

I think you are a little confused on how things work. Currently (AFAIK) most people connect to APE and WIX with fairly large (10, 100 or 1000 MB/s links) which are (uaulyy) only partially full. They will then advertise their networks to various people on the exchange and whatever goes their way does. Most people don't worry about the fact that traffic will flow more in one direction that the other. If your an ISP then you tend to download more while if your a hosting outfit like Iserve then you tend to upload more. It's not a case of trying to balance the two at all or QSI getting a free ride cause it's customers download more than they upload.

What you guys don't seem to understand is that if all the smaller ISP's Maxnet, IHUG, Slingshot, etc.... were all combined into one (big lump) that is probably way more end consumers than what Telstra has. And probably enough to get Telecom thinking as well

Have a look at something like: http://www.leadingedgeinternet.net.au/ also Citylink and others already offer bandwidth both between APE and WIX and ( though not for Citylink) Internationally. If you think the L2 cost of connecting to APE is too high then maybe talk to Tangent about a shared VLAN between various people. If you don't think they are too high then just connect to APE and then revise your peering policies to whatever you want.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Wicks" To: "'Tikiri Wicks'" Cc: "'nznog'" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [nznog] Peering Issue - Perhaps a solution

I hate to mention the obvious Tikiri, but that already exsists, they are called APE and WIX.

-----Original Message----- From: Tikiri Wicks [mailto:tcwicks(a)maxnet.co.nz] Sent: Wednesday, 26 November 2003 11:13 a.m. To: Andy Linton; nznog Subject: [nznog] Peering Issue - Perhaps a solution

Just a thought here

Since most ISP's in NZ seem to be in agreement over this. What if instead of just blowing off steam:

Everyone joins hands and sets up two (or more) peering exchanges. One in Auckland and one in Wellington. Then everyone simply drops all peering with Telstra (and / or Telecom if and where relevant) and interconnect through the two (or more) exchange points. The idea is that no one would pay for anything except for the cost of connectiong yourselves to the exchange points. Whether this be via tangent / united network / citylink / some big SDH radio link / microwave / a whole bunch of people running to the exchanges with buckets fileld with packets :)

Peering would be voluntary for anyone and on the condition that each provides the same amount of bandwidth under the same conditions from their network to the exchange as they do from teh exchange to their network.

That should keep players like Telecom and Telstra from trying to manipulate the market.

If Telstra want to peer they would be forced to do so at the same conditions that apply to everyone else

Also the costs of interconnectivity between the exchange points could be borne by the members based on some simple equation such as for example a ratio based on the amount of bandwidth with which they connect to the exchanges. Fill in the blanks here ________

Finally I would think that this would be a great opportunity for operators like tangent who have fibre running between the two (or more) hypothetical exchanges.

Cheers

Tikiri

----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Linton" To: "nznog" Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: [nznog] Peering at the APE and WIX - was Re: Irked with TelstraClear

...

I posted some notes yesterday about peering with the APE and WIX route servers and gave a link for application forms which wasn't as useful as it might have been. For reference the forms are at:

http://www.citylink.co.nz/cgi-bin/wixape.pl?tmpl=ape.tmpl http://www.citylink.co.nz/cgi-bin/wixape.pl?tmpl=wix.tmpl

Joe Abley posted some ideas on peering - one obvious one that he hasn't gone the whole distance with is that if many of the small/medium players work together they will be in a better position to negotiate peering with the two large telcos.

Consider the stories here:

http://www.tomsdomain.com/aesop/id17.htm

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