Tomorrow is 23 September and TVNZ 7 and InternetNZ have their ICT Debate scheduled to start at around 9pm, after the news. While you wait for this exciting event to start, you can watch the Tawa Schools Music Festival, live from the Michael Fowler Center in Wellington. http://www.r2.co.nz/20080923 starting at 7:30pm and running for around 2 hours. On 4 Oct 1994, our first public webcast, was the Tawa Schools Music Festival, so the webcast tomorrow is for us a trip down memory lane. Its also a fun event. You can see the 1994 event at http://www.r2.co.nz/19941004 In 1994, the MFC was connected to the Internet by fiber via WCC, which was connected to VUW by 2Mbps microwave. The concert webcast had 16 viewers in 12 countries. It impressed then Mayor Fran Wilde so much that she wrote about it in her weekly column in the Evening Post. So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ? But maybe its just better to drink beer and enjoy the concert. Cheers - Richard
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Richard Naylor wrote:
So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ?
"At work the internet is a great productivity tool, in the home it’s largely an entertainment medium. [...] You’ll be able to download Trade-me and You-tube faster – but where’s the value in that? [...] To be fair though some value is created by people who work from home but for the vast majority of those people the existing copper networks do the job just fine. " - David Ware , Managing Director TeamTalk Ltd . April 2008. [1] [1] - http://diversity.net.nz/asset-grab-no-solution-for-internet-infrastructure/2... -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 12:07 AM, Simon Lyall
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Richard Naylor wrote:
So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ?
"At work the internet is a great productivity tool, in the home it's largely an entertainment medium. [...] You'll be able to download Trade-me and You-tube faster – but where's the value in that? [...] To be fair though some value is created by people who work from home but for the vast majority of those people the existing copper networks do the job just fine. " - David Ware , Managing Director TeamTalk Ltd . April 2008. [1]
I'm sure stable owners said that about the car. The article I sent though earlier is a counter-point to some of the points in the linked article. As is noted, competition is necessarily possible in the telecoms market. Thus the question is should there be a monopoly, but who will be the monopoly and how long will it take to archive. As a consumer - business or otherwise - in the market which is preferable? Throw around emote words like government monopoly is not effective - many things in life are effective government monopolies. Roads, for example. Good markets can still be created on top of them. Telecom did not serve it's market well with it's monopoly over the past 20 years. Nicholas
On 22/09/2008, at 8:09 PM, Richard Naylor wrote:
So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ?
In most countries looking at this debate the answer to the question you've posed is, "Because nobody wants to pay for it." Small point, I know :-) - mark -- Mark Newton Email: newton(a)internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton(a)atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Richard Naylor wrote:
So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ?
The easy answer at this point is that people keep on deluding themselves into thinking that wireless will be capable of replacing fibre as a fast, scalable service "real soon now"[tm]. Which is constantly proven to be testicles, but it muddies the waters just enough to confuse the lay observers. - -- Matthew Poole "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer." -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFI2BdITdEtTmUCdpwRAptvAJ9yv2Mrw4fFJi9+oK6x8vO/2BX4tgCfVgGD vx7orY3/Xc7ET88iINYEMm8= =P/VN -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Matthew Poole wrote:
The easy answer at this point is that people keep on deluding themselves into thinking that wireless will be capable of replacing fibre as a fast, scalable service "real soon now"[tm]. Which is constantly proven to be testicles, but it muddies the waters just enough to confuse the lay observers.
Yes... where are our GPRS and CDMA wireless local loops? [1] -- Juha [1] "Wireless local-loop services also seem well placed to offer higher-speed Internet services, using CDMA and GPRS overlays on the Telecom and Vodafone networks respectively, within one to two years, and through the emergence of third generation(3G) services within two to four years." - From the Ministerial Inquiry into Telecommunications, Final Report, 27 Sept 2000. http://www.med.govt.nz/upload/30006/final.pdf
On 23/09/2008, at 10:41 AM, Juha Saarinen wrote:
Matthew Poole wrote:
The easy answer at this point is that people keep on deluding themselves into thinking that wireless will be capable of replacing fibre as a fast, scalable service "real soon now"[tm]. Which is constantly proven to be testicles, but it muddies the waters just enough to confuse the lay observers.
Yes... where are our GPRS and CDMA wireless local loops? [1]
I'm pretty sure you can get them now can't you? I seem to recall Vodafone offering semi-portable GSM home phone thing. Woosh phone is the same sort of deal. Anyway, imagine if we hadn't had years of uncertainty about unbundling/ bitstream, and now both Labour and National promising money for fibre roll outs at some point in the future? If the government had just kept out of it, my bet is the serious ISPs and so on would have got on with it, instead of waiting for the next quick buck. Why do a fibre roll out when if you wait a year or two the govt might fund it for you? Why care about fibre at all when you can get to most of your customers with the only capital cost being an ATM PA for your Cisco box (bitstream)? Why pay any capital cost when you can wholesale from Orcon, and then wait a few years and sell them your customer base? How much of their HFC network has TelstraClear expanded since unbundling went in to place? How much of their own copper have they rolled out since bitstream came along? How much fibre/copper have ANY other providers rolled out since 2003? I'm not sure, but I think I put the blame for this state of affairs equally on Government and the ISPs - ISPs for pushing for unbundling for so long[1], and Government for entertaining the idea. Anyway, this sort of discussion isn't really appropriate for a strictly network operations mailing list, something like member-discuss(a)internetnz.mumble would be better or if you prefer, off-list flaming is welcomed. [1] We could probably narrow this down to several individuals. I mean, what regulatory liaison at an ISP is going to recommend to his upper management/board that unbundling is a waste of time and put himself out of a job? -- Nathan Ward
On Mon, 22 Sep 2008 22:39:06 +1200
Richard Naylor
So maybe a question for the politicians in the debate is - why after 14 years are people still debating whether we need fiber ? Why is it all taking so long ?
Because it will destroy the "market" in Toll calls fred
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fred
participants (8)
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fred -
Juha Saarinen -
Mark Newton -
Matthew Poole -
Nathan Ward -
Nicholas Lee -
Richard Naylor -
Simon Lyall