<Multimedia>If you wish this posting to be a multimedia experience, go to http://www.netspace.org/~dmacks/internet-songbook/lart-lart-lart-the-spammer... and sing the contents of that page to yourself while reading.</Multimedia> NZNOG People, Three days ago I posted to this list, saying
Just over a year ago, there was discussion on this list of spamming by
one Julian Angelo. He has now approached me, asking to have these references removed from the NZNOG archive. It seems that prospective employers who look up his name on the web find these archive entries, a fact which may not be helping his career any.
If any network operator has an objection to these entries being removed from the archive, could they please contact me directly.
I had a number of reasons for doing things in this way. For one thing, I do not see myself as owner in the usual sense of that word of this list or its archive. For another, the content of email sent to me in response to such an enquiry might conceivably be actionable. I also take the view that spammers are thieves who must be shown the error of their ways and encouraged to live useful, constructive lives. I am in principle very happy with the idea of editing the names of the guilty out of publicly-readable archives a suitable period after their offending ceases. The chance to gain useful employment would then be one of the reasons why they would give up their vile activities in the first place. My request to be contacted directly was followed by close to fifty emails to the list. Some had particularly disappointing content. The acceptable use policy for this list states that character assassination is unacceptable. It also states that discussion unrelated to Internet technical and operational matters is not appropriate. Discussions of a legal nature are particularly discouraged. This has not been a good week for this list's s/n ratio, nor for constructive discussion. I am all in favour of a certain amount of humour of questionable relevance, but there was little of that here. The only such contribution was Matt Camp's, which observed "I'm sure there's a lesson there. f33r the far-reaching p0w3rz of NZNOG! [...] we shall [...] smite the career prospects of spammers and script kiddies with our flaming LARTting tool of justice!" I have doubts about his spelling of LARTing, but I too am sure there's a lesson here. As I've already said, I see publicity and its withdrawal as a useful tool in encouraging spammers into the paths of righteousness. Regrettably, the point was not taken up by others. My thanks to those who did respond directly to me. The suggestion that by altering the archive's contents on any occasion I might become responsible for all of its content was one I had not previously considered. Other opinions expressed fell into two groups. Some subscribers believed that an apology was called for before Mr Angelo's name was removed from the archive, while others felt that archives should not ever be altered. Some of this latter group observed that archiving an apology from Julian Angelo would give prospective employers a full piucture of events. I count four subscribers in the first group and thirteen in the second. Removing from the count people I believe not to be staff of network operators, and the subscriber who expressed both opinions, leaves three in the first group and eight in the second. I feel myself to be bound by this expression of the views of subscribers, and will not seek to have the archives changed. At no point has anyone even implied to me that Julian Angelo has done anything wrong since the events of July 2000. I went into this thinking that was the question. Donald Neal List Administrator/Muggins <Multimedia>You can stop singing now.</Multimedia> -- Donald Neal Mobility & Calling Platforms Network Delivery Telecom New Zealand Ltd --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Donald Neal wrote:
legal nature are particularly discouraged. This has not been a good week for this list's s/n ratio, nor for constructive discussion.
This (yet again) brings up the topic of an alternate, less formal, list allowing NZNOG to get back to its intended topic focus, that of things which impact Network Operations in NZ. I am quite happy to set such a list up and maintain it, if there is sufficient interest. Please indicate if you would join it, it if were created. Also suggested was a Buy/Sell type list... Do people think having a seperate list for trading items is worthwhile? My gut feeling is that people can just post such messages to the informal list until such time as they start becoming regular enough to warrant their own list.
thirteen in the second. Removing from the count people I believe not to be staff of network operators, and the subscriber who expressed both
Hrm... good point here. I know I don't have an official sig on this email address, so might have been placed in the 'not a network op' basket here... yet I am. --- Matt Camp --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 11:22:41AM +1200, Matt Camp wrote:
thirteen in the second. Removing from the count people I believe not to be staff of network operators, and the subscriber who expressed both
Hrm... good point here. I know I don't have an official sig on this email address, so might have been placed in the 'not a network op' basket here... yet I am.
And I'm not - if anyone thinks that this makes me unsuitable for inclusion by the 'network operator elite' then let me know and I'll unsubscribe. Dean --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
And I'm not - if anyone thinks that this makes me unsuitable for inclusion by the 'network operator elite' then let me know and I'll unsubscribe.
Now, now, Dean... no need to be bashful... I know you're in charge of a peer-to-peer LANtastic network at home, so I think you qualify. I guess someone like Roger de Salis doesn't though. He flogs network gear, but doesn't operate much, right? -- Regards, Juha PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Juha Saarinen wrote:
Now, now, Dean... no need to be bashful... I know you're in charge of a peer-to-peer LANtastic network at home, so I think you qualify.
I guess someone like Roger de Salis doesn't though. He flogs network gear, but doesn't operate much, right?
Roger does have his own home network to tend too, although its wireless rather than copper/duct tape/string... Perhaps we need a new nzwog - the wireless operators group? Keith Davidson --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 12:14 PM 7/19/2001 +1200, Keith Davidson wrote:
Juha Saarinen wrote:
Now, now, Dean... no need to be bashful... I know you're in charge of a peer-to-peer LANtastic network at home, so I think you qualify.
I guess someone like Roger de Salis doesn't though. He flogs network gear, but doesn't operate much, right?
Roger does have his own home network to tend too, although its wireless rather than copper/duct tape/string...
Nope - wireless with a copper feed to the house. The router is actually on the house of another customer along the road with about 150m of cat-5 between them. We extended the cat-5 with a switch in the middle (one our our NIDs without any fiber, it lets us supply feeds to others in the area). We do this quite a bit to have a network larger than what is covered by the fiber and in areas we wouldn't normally go to. No the cat-5 isn't blue, its external cat-5. Roger just consumes more IP number space than normal. richard.naylor(a)citylink.co.nz --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Keith Davidson wrote:
Perhaps we need a new nzwog - the wireless operators group?
NZWOG??? -- Regards, Juha PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
enough already !!!!!! -----Original Message----- From: owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz]On Behalf Of Juha Saarinen Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2001 12:29 PM To: Keith Davidson Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: Julian Angelo - Conclusion On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Keith Davidson wrote:
Perhaps we need a new nzwog - the wireless operators group?
NZWOG??? -- Regards, Juha PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:02:10PM +1200, Juha Saarinen wrote:
I guess someone like Roger de Salis doesn't though. He flogs network gear, but doesn't operate much, right?
--
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for Dean (bi-partisan as ever) --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for
But everyone has wireless networks at home now... right? Right? :) --- Matt Camp --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
It wasn't so much that he has a wireless network AT home (I'm not sure that he does). It was the fact that he's in a position to be able to get wireless networking TO Home. Oh and yeah - everyone had wireless at home right? =) Dean On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:41:58PM +1200, Matt Camp wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for
But everyone has wireless networks at home now... right?
Right?
:)
--- Matt Camp
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Matt Camp wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for
But everyone has wireless networks at home now... right? Right?
Its just another contributing factor to the average techie dying from cancer in a few years, just like mobile phones. ObOnTopic: The contents of archives shouldn't be modified, but putting a link from the original employer-will-question posts, to a suitable public apology/explanation for previous actions would possibly keep everyone happy. --==-- Bruce. Speaking for myself. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Bruce Campbell wrote:
Its just another contributing factor to the average techie dying from cancer in a few years, just like mobile phones.
Why do you think Roger put his antenna on a neighbours roof? Keith Davidson --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 2:40 pm +1200 7/19/01, Keith Davidson wrote:
Bruce Campbell wrote:
Its just another contributing factor to the average techie dying from cancer in a few years, just like mobile phones.
Why do you think Roger put his antenna on a neighbours roof?
To confuse the cat detector van. -- Andrew P. Gardner barcelona.com stolen, stmoritz.com stays. What's uniform about the UDRP? We could ask ICANN to send WIPO a clue, but do they have any to spare? Get active: http://www.tldlobby.com --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Matt Camp wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for
But everyone has wireless networks at home now... right?
Right?
Well I do too - and almost internal wireless network as well - Apple airport to Orinoco PCMCIA - but yet to tear down the copper /duct tape /string that connects the 3 desktop computers at home - wifey likes the 100Mb internal network and doesn't want to trade down to slow 10Mb stuff, although she finds 10Mb Internet speed acceptable... Roger, any interest in forming nzwog? Keith Davidson --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 2:36 pm +1200 7/19/01, Keith Davidson wrote:
Matt Camp wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Roger has a cool network at home - and a wireless outlook to die for
But everyone has wireless networks at home now... right?
Right?
Well I do too - and almost internal wireless network as well - Apple airport to Orinoco PCMCIA - but yet to tear down the copper /duct tape /string that connects the 3 desktop computers at home - wifey likes the 100Mb internal network and doesn't want to trade down to slow 10Mb stuff, although she finds 10Mb Internet speed acceptable...
Wifey? Boy are YOU in trouble! Heh heh. -- Andrew P. Gardner barcelona.com stolen, stmoritz.com stays. What's uniform about the UDRP? We could ask ICANN to send WIPO a clue, but do they have any to spare? Get active: http://www.tldlobby.com --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Juha Saarinen wrote:
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
And I'm not - if anyone thinks that this makes me unsuitable for inclusion by the 'network operator elite' then let me know and I'll unsubscribe.
Now, now, Dean... no need to be bashful... I know you're in charge of a peer-to-peer LANtastic network at home, so I think you qualify.
I guess someone like Roger De Salis doesn't though. He flogs network gear, but doesn't operate much, right?
I run a 6 PC domestic network with a /29. Router is Linux 6.1, Couple of disk stores, storage capacity currently running past 150Gb, mostly MP3's and ripped DVD videos (pink Floyd, Tina Turner, the corrs, etc etc) and I admit to some help from Don Stokes with a couple of curly things DNS things, I run 4 AVVID IP phones at home, over a bullet proof 802.11b/directional aerials link to a well-known Wellington Provider. 5Mbps both directions... no outages ever (apart from known maintenance). (Si, I take it all back, I was only winding Dean up....... ) Dean has actually been in my domestic cave, when we were discussing email ugliness (which I've since solved with trestlemail/fetchmail). 4 AVVID phone connect to a hub on the outside ethernet, all the PC's are natted through the router. Very cool, multiple lines on a single number, quite a different proposition than a multiple analogue phones on a single copper pair. You can call me on 04 914 6374 if you wish to check out the voice quality. Bitter things I have learned....... Because I don't run BGP/4 domestically, I can never aspire to the lofty heights of this elite group.... Understanding how this stuff works is completely useless, in fact an impediment when attempting to have a dialogue at an executive level. Not so bitter things I have learned.. Working for Cisco is very cool. In spite of the fact that we ask you to change IOS versions like everyone else changes underware. :-) Now Dean, my /29 raises your LANtastic network......
-- Regards,
Juha
PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
-- \_ Roger De Salis Cisco Systems NZ Ltd
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 12:45:56PM +1200, Roger De Salis wrote:
Bitter things I have learned.......
Because I don't run BGP/4 domestically, I can never aspire to the lofty heights of this elite group....
I'm the same - I do get to support some of the largest networks in the world though. Pity that doesn't count. You have to be a network operator on two small south pacific islands to get a say it seems . =)
Now Dean, my /29 raises your LANtastic network......
I had a /24 at home when I was in NZ - Now it's redeployed as taking it to Aus was just going to be more trouble than it's worth. Dean --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Roger De Salis wrote:
I run a 6 PC domestic network with a /29. Router is Linux 6.1, Couple of disk stores, storage capacity currently running past 150Gb, mostly MP3's and ripped DVD videos (pink Floyd, Tina Turner, the corrs, etc etc) and I admit to some help from Don Stokes with a couple of curly things DNS things, I run 4 AVVID IP phones at home, over a bullet proof 802.11b/directional aerials link to a well-known Wellington Provider. 5Mbps both directions... no outages ever (apart from known maintenance). (Si, I take it all back, I was only winding Dean up....... )
Dean has actually been in my domestic cave, when we were discussing email ugliness (which I've since solved with trestlemail/fetchmail).
4 AVVID phone connect to a hub on the outside ethernet, all the PC's are natted through the router. Very cool, multiple lines on a single number, quite a different proposition than a multiple analogue phones on a single copper pair. You can call me on 04 914 6374 if you wish to check out the voice quality.
Bitter things I have learned.......
Because I don't run BGP/4 domestically, I can never aspire to the lofty heights of this elite group....
Understanding how this stuff works is completely useless, in fact an impediment when attempting to have a dialogue at an executive level.
Not so bitter things I have learned..
Working for Cisco is very cool. In spite of the fact that we ask you to change IOS versions like everyone else changes underware.
:-)
Now Dean, my /29 raises your LANtastic network......
::: Juha hides his feeble switched FE home network in shame ::: -- Regards, Juha PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At no point has anyone even implied to me that Julian Angelo has done anything wrong since the events of July 2000. I went into this thinking that was the question.
I can respond to this comment - I was abuse coordinator for *.attica.net.nz from November 2000 to March 2001, and I dealt with Julian direct within that time period although the exact date escapes me. Mark. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, 19 Jul 2001, Mark Foster wrote:
At no point has anyone even implied to me that Julian Angelo has done anything wrong since the events of July 2000. I went into this thinking that was the question.
I can respond to this comment - I was abuse coordinator for *.attica.net.nz from November 2000 to March 2001, and I dealt with Julian direct within that time period although the exact date escapes me.
... and presumably, the suggestions that Angelo should apologise imply that he might have been a bad boy. -- Regards, Juha PGP fingerprint: B7E1 CC52 5FCA 9756 B502 10C8 4CD8 B066 12F3 9544 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Thu, Jul 19, 2001 at 10:18:54AM +1200, Donald Neal wrote:
My request to be contacted directly was followed by close to fifty emails to the list. Some had particularly disappointing content. The
I respectfully submit that sticking a finger on a raw nerve and expecting indirect, carefully-considered feedback is unrealistic.
acceptable use policy for this list states that character assassination is unacceptable. It also states that discussion unrelated to Internet technical and operational matters is not appropriate. Discussions of a legal nature are particularly discouraged. This has not been a good week for this list's s/n ratio, nor for constructive discussion.
It is regrettable that this occurred and a reminder is appropriate. Nevertheless, I think that discussion about the list should be on-topic, lest we need some sort of nznog-meta list. Mark. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (12)
-
Andy Gardner -
Bruce Campbell -
Dean Pemberton -
Donald Neal -
Juha Saarinen -
Keith Davidson -
Mark Foster -
Mark van Walraven -
Matt Camp -
Richard Naylor -
Roger De Salis -
Tony Wicks