.nz IDN names with macrons
Hey guys, Sorry to bust in amongst all the DNSSEC talk.. I'm just curious that with it being almost a year now since the DNC launched macrons for .nz names have any registrars actually got in place the ability in their interfaces to a) register IDN domains and b) set up IDN DNS zones/records etc? a quick survey of the couple of interfaces I have access to points to no, not really, and at least one registrar willing to do it manually for me. So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;) Cheers, Blair
Um, how is "we'll happily let you register and maintain xn-- names" not IDN support? Ultimately, IDNs are a browser / client issue, with a little bit of policy around stopping phishers et c. Down in the engine room where the registrars operate, they don't look any different to other names. Sure, folks could have interfaces which allow entry / display of the encoded name, but it's not actually required for registration unless you don't know hoe IDNs work, which frankly, I rather hope anyone doing DNS stuff does. -- don On 06/15/2011 07:54 PM, Blair Harrison wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry to bust in amongst all the DNSSEC talk..
I'm just curious that with it being almost a year now since the DNC launched macrons for .nz names have any registrars actually got in place the ability in their interfaces to a) register IDN domains and b) set up IDN DNS zones/records etc? a quick survey of the couple of interfaces I have access to points to no, not really, and at least one registrar willing to do it manually for me.
So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;)
Cheers, Blair
_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nzno
Ultimately, IDNs are a browser / client issue, with a little bit of policy around stopping phishers et c. Down in the engine room where the registrars operate, they don't look any different to other names.
Yes there is a difference with .nz registrar's. They have to upgrade to using a newer format (see http://nzrs.net.nz/sites/default/files/idn-documentation.pdf) If you try and register an IDN domain in most registrar's interfaces (not all) it will fail as they are not sending the extra fields in the XML for IDN's as specified in the above document. Thanks Craig
Hi Don,
While I'm well aware of how punycode works, I don't think the general .nz
public would have any idea how to convert the name they want to register
into punycode - nor should they. They just want to type the macron name
into the registration box and have it work.
As far as I'm concerned if the front end doesn't let you enter it in
directly, there is no support :)
Cheers,
Blair
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Don Stokes
Um, how is "we'll happily let you register and maintain xn-- names" not IDN support?
Ultimately, IDNs are a browser / client issue, with a little bit of policy around stopping phishers et c. Down in the engine room where the registrars operate, they don't look any different to other names.
Sure, folks could have interfaces which allow entry / display of the encoded name, but it's not actually required for registration unless you don't know hoe IDNs work, which frankly, I rather hope anyone doing DNS stuff does.
-- don
On 06/15/2011 07:54 PM, Blair Harrison wrote:
Hey guys,
Sorry to bust in amongst all the DNSSEC talk..
I'm just curious that with it being almost a year now since the DNC launched macrons for .nz names have any registrars actually got in place the ability in their interfaces to a) register IDN domains and b) set up IDN DNS zones/records etc? a quick survey of the couple of interfaces I have access to points to no, not really, and at least one registrar willing to do it manually for me.
So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;)
Cheers, Blair
_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nzhttp://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nzno
_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Hi Blair, On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 19:54 +1200, Blair Harrison wrote:
So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;)
Check out the IDN Friendly column here: http://dnc.org.nz//story/authorised-registrars It looks like there are currently 3 registrars which support IDN. Cheers! -- Andrew Ruthven Wellington, New Zealand At home: andrew(a)etc.gen.nz | linux.conf.au 2012 | Come with us, Under the Stars | http://lcaunderthestars.org.au
On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Andrew Ruthven
Hi Blair,
On Wed, 2011-06-15 at 19:54 +1200, Blair Harrison wrote:
So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;)
Check out the IDN Friendly column here:
http://dnc.org.nz//story/authorised-registrars
It looks like there are currently 3 registrars which support IDN.
Cheers!
Thanks Andrew, Wasn't sure how up to date this list is as the page publish date was January, but seems to tie in with what I've heard offlist :) Only 3 after a year is pretty sad, I thought NZ was supposed to be on the technical bleeding edge of the internet, eh, guess not. At least there are a few more ticks in the IPv6 glue column :) Cheers, Blair
On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Blair Harrison wrote:
So, stick your hand up if you have built in IDN support, please, and those who haven't, why not? Is it lack of demand, or just plain laziness? You've had a year to get it sorted guys ;)
Well I was a little disappointed .nz only supported some Maori characters, having accents would have been useful. But in reality having domains that people have trouble typing isn't very useful. I just tried typing "cafe" with an accent and the combination or terminals I'm using rejected it. The average person has problems with backslash and forward-slash, imaging talking them through typing a domain name with a macron or accent in it. -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.
On 06/16/2011 10:49 AM, Simon Lyall wrote:
But in reality having domains that people have trouble typing isn't very useful. I just tried typing "cafe" with an accent and the combination or terminals I'm using rejected it. The average person has problems with backslash and forward-slash, imaging talking them through typing a domain name with a macron or accent in it.
This was discussed by the RAG (Registrar's Advisory Group) at some length and as you have surmised, I believe that it contributes to, what I believe, is a low uptake of such names. Add to that the lack of support in applications and it does seem to have been a rather pointless exercise. Even now, if I ask even computer literate folks how to type a macronised character on their computer I get a rather blank look. About this time last year a number of folks on this list evaluated a number of email applications and the various browsers and the ability to use an IDN was lacking in many/most of those in common use or they were broken in some way making the use next to impossible. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Glen Eustace GodZone Internet Services, a division of AGRE Enterprises Ltd. P.O. Box 8020, Palmerston North, New Zealand 4446. Ph: +64 6 357 8168, Fax +64 6 357 8165, Mob: +64 27 542 4015 http://www.godzone.net.nz "A Ministry specialising in providing low-cost Internet Services to NZ Christian Churches, Ministries and Organisations."
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:09, Glen Eustace
This was discussed by the RAG (Registrar's Advisory Group) at some length and as you have surmised, I believe that it contributes to, what I believe, is a low uptake of such names. Add to that the lack of support in applications and it does seem to have been a rather pointless exercise.
If the success of the effort were to be measured by uptake I'd agree with that conclusion. If instead, and I'm sure you and RAG appreciated that, it is considered in the wider context of supporting the use of one of NZ's official languages in domain names, it cannot fail. Except to the degree that the work done at the registry level is being left to languish by the majority of registrars. It is up to registrars to make a business decision about the value of accommodating what was, I expect, always anticipated to be minor demand. Further down the chain at the client level another set of decisions have to made which are less likely to be influenced by parochial concerns but might in the fullness of time be simply expected from a wide range of non-Roman alphabet users, like café. I hope solving the latter works for all.
Even now, if I ask even computer literate folks how to type a macronised character on their computer I get a rather blank look.
I suspect you're polling the wrong identity group. Those who work regularly with the language will probably know very well how to elicit it from the standard keyboard.
About this time last year a number of folks on this list evaluated a number of email applications and the various browsers and the ability to use an IDN was lacking in many/most of those in common use or they were broken in some way making the use next to impossible.
As Blair has noted, IDN had to start somewhere, and it has, that the downstream has neglected it is regrettable.
Glen Eustace
Hamish. -- http://tr.im/HKM
On 06/16/2011 12:00 PM, Hamish MacEwan wrote:
If the success of the effort were to be measured by uptake I'd agree with that conclusion. If instead, and I'm sure you and RAG appreciated that, it is considered in the wider context of supporting the use of one of NZ's official languages in domain names, it cannot fail.
Agreed. It has resulted in an infrastructure that can be expanded in the future to support any character set. There was speculation in the discussions that if Chinese glyphs were allowed we might see significant activity. Whilst they are not currently allowed, I understand they could be supported relatively easily now.
Even now, if I ask even computer literate folks how to type a macronised character on their computer I get a rather blank look.
I suspect you're polling the wrong identity group. Those who work regularly with the language will probably know very well how to elicit it from the standard keyboard.
Quite possibly. But with respect to email, it isn't just people in that 'identity group' who may want to communicate with you and if they can't easily enter the domain in the address ....
As Blair has noted, IDN had to start somewhere, and it has, that the downstream has neglected it is regrettable.
For those I talked with that were actually interested in an IDN, email was the biggest concern. I don't know whether support in the common clients (and MTAs) is any better than it was a year ago. I haven't looked at it since then. -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Glen Eustace GodZone Internet Services, a division of AGRE Enterprises Ltd. P.O. Box 8020, Palmerston North, New Zealand 4446. Ph: +64 6 357 8168, Fax +64 6 357 8165, Mob: +64 27 542 4015 http://www.godzone.net.nz "A Ministry specialising in providing low-cost Internet Services to NZ Christian Churches, Ministries and Organisations."
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 01:33:38PM +1200, Glen Eustace said:
As Blair has noted, IDN had to start somewhere, and it has, that the downstream has neglected it is regrettable.
For those I talked with that were actually interested in an IDN, email was the biggest concern. I don't know whether support in the common clients (and MTAs) is any better than it was a year ago. I haven't looked at it since then.
Last Sunday, at an infants birthday party, (so no beer, but reasonable recollection), I had an illuminating conversation with a man currently contracting to Microsoft on a Maori translation of some major piece of MS code (I thought he said Windows 8, but I may have misheard that, on reflection it seems implausible). So it seems likely that if you want a client that can deal with macrons, they're available. Whether that filters back to the standard versions that non Maori writers use, who knows. Cheers simon -- Simon Blake simon(a)katipo.co.nz Geek for hire +64 22 402 0044
On 16 June 2011 11:09, Glen Eustace wrote:
Even now, if I ask even computer literate folks how to type a macronised character on their computer I get a rather blank look.
One of the first things I do when setting up a new computer in my household (Linux) is re-map Capslock to become a modifier key. I regard Capslock as redundant and find it more useful to be able to type Māori. Full unicode support in DNS seems like a darn good idea in a non anglo-centric world. Yuri de Groot
Hi Simon,
On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:49 AM, Simon Lyall
Well I was a little disappointed .nz only supported some Maori characters, having accents would have been useful.
True enough.
But in reality having domains that people have trouble typing isn't very useful. I just tried typing "cafe" with an accent and the combination or terminals I'm using rejected it. The average person has problems with backslash and forward-slash, imaging talking them through typing a domain name with a macron or accent in it.
I disagree. While currently this may not be straightforward for a lot of people, we have to start somewhere. The point of getting this enabled for .nz is that we can start down the path of enabling wider application support. Chicken and egg problem, really. Nobody will bother turning this stuff on if they have no reason to use it. Typing the characters is not straightforward on standard US kbd/lanaguage type setups commonly in use here, but it's trivial at least on OSX and likely the other common OSes to change the kbd/language to allow the macrons to be typed with a simple modifier key. The people this is targeted at generally do know how to use them, they do have the keys enabled, and they do want to use it (though maybe that is impractical at the present time due to application support lacking). We CAN enable the options in our software to support unicode, so I think it's a little pathetic to say "Oh, I haven't got it turned on, therefore nobody else could possibly want to use this ever". I'm not expecting this to be usable by everyone overnight, and I'm not really expecting to see tv and newspaper ads with macron-enabled domains appearing, but it's nice to be able to have it there. It's certainly a nice step towards acceptance that English really isn't the only language in use in NZ right now, and I think that makes us look good internationally. Sure it take a bit of work to get this enabled, but I really don't see what all the resistance is about. If it's a question of no demand, then that is fine, we do have a couple of registrars already which people can use, which is great. But I am curious to know a bit more definitely what the reasoning behind not implementing IDN support would be for registrars? Maybe we can revisit this all again in another few years when the application support is a bit more developed. :) Cheers, Blair
Thanks to Blair for raising this question. We implemented IDNs for Māori characters because that's an official language of NZ and we made a commitment to do it several years ago. We held back on other characters such as acute... The idea that the Internet world is going to remain an ASCII character set world (or Roman character set if you allow for acute, grave, umlaut and other "European" language marks) seems naive when the ICANN program to add global IDN TLDs that have addresses written in Urdu, Russian, Arabic etc is well advanced. Software will need to evolve to meet those needs. At this stage the .nz Names Space is not a barrier that people can use to say "There's no point as the DNS doesn't support it". And I'd like to see more than three registrars supporting this. And I agree with Blair when he says "As far as I'm concerned if the front end doesn't let you enter it in directly, there is no support :)"
participants (10)
-
Andrew Ruthven -
Andy Linton -
Blair Harrison -
Craig Whitmore -
Don Stokes -
Glen Eustace -
Hamish MacEwan -
Simon Blake -
Simon Lyall -
yuri