Hello Im looking into setting up a data center, and am looking to peer with the ape, i was wondering how i can do this i am also applying for some IP space from apnic and having a little trouble setting up the PERSOn as it keeps failing. Any Help on this matter would be appreciated i just really need to know what to do to peer with the ape router recommendations etc Cheers _________________________________________________________________ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html
On Tue, 3 May 2005, Brett Johanson wrote:
Im looking into setting up a data center, and am looking to peer with the ape, i was wondering how i can do this i am also applying for some IP space from apnic and having a little trouble setting up the PERSOn as it keeps failing.
To peer with APE your probably should talk to citylink as they can advise you of places you can connect to it and then you can work out the best way to get to one of those (or perhaps put your servers there). Setting up your own datacenter can be pretty expensive unless you have a lot of machines you need housed. Is this for Quicker Net or a separate company? If you are in Hamilton there are a couple of little datacenters (The TelstraClear in the middle of town is the one most people use). In Auckland you have other options including some with APE connectivity (and other provider). If you are having problems with the APNIC forms then have a careful read though the docs and if you are still stuck trying ringing them. You probably shouldn't apply for space until you are 100% sure of exactly what you want however. -- Simon J. Lyall. | Very Busy | Mail: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.
If your just starting out... your probably better off purchasing IP space from your provider. APNIC fees are pretty expensive for small companys.. -----Original Message----- From: Brett Johanson [mailto:sativanz(a)hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 1:33 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: [nznog] any help appreciated Hello Im looking into setting up a data center, and am looking to peer with the ape, i was wondering how i can do this i am also applying for some IP space from apnic and having a little trouble setting up the PERSOn as it keeps failing. Any Help on this matter would be appreciated i just really need to know what to do to peer with the ape router recommendations etc Cheers _________________________________________________________________ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Hi, We have recently opened a data centre in Christchurch, and have been through, or are going through all the same things. I can give you some help and advice with which products to go for from everything from your border routers to your backup generator, and how to get things working effectively. We are negotiating with providers to give us connectivity to APE at present. Craig Spiers is right - if you don't have 500 servers to kick off with, get IP Address space from your provider, although this gets nasty when you are multihoming, as you will need to get permission from the provider of the IP addresses to announce those address ranges to the other provider(s) - something some providers don't seem to like. APNIC fees are pretty heavy for a small provider, and establishing a data centre is expensive enough as it is. I imagine you've already asked yourself whether you'd be better just colocating your existing equipment with another provider, but if not, do that now, because you'll be surprised just what establishing a DC really does cost. Many providers offer pretty outstanding rates if you need a whole rack or several racks. Feel free to give me a call on one of the numbers below and I can help you out. Cheers, Erin Salmon Managing Director Unleash Computers Ltd www.unleash.co.nz Phone: +64 3 365 1273 Mobile: +64 21 877 913 -----Original Message----- From: Brett Johanson [mailto:sativanz(a)hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 1:33 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: [nznog] any help appreciated Hello Im looking into setting up a data center, and am looking to peer with the ape, i was wondering how i can do this i am also applying for some IP space from apnic and having a little trouble setting up the PERSOn as it keeps failing. Any Help on this matter would be appreciated i just really need to know what to do to peer with the ape router recommendations etc Cheers _________________________________________________________________ Need more speed? Get Xtra Broadband @ http://jetstream.xtra.co.nz/chm/0,,202853-1000,00.html _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.1 - Release Date: 2/05/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 2/05/2005
There have been some words of advice that indicate that having address space is expensive in relation to setting up a data centre. I'd have to say I disagree. Anyone setting up a data centre will be face with costs for racks, air conditioning units, power supply, rental of premises, cabling that make the APNIC fee of US$1250 (NZ$1700) for up to a /22 look like small beer. (Yes, I know there's a one off fee of US$2500 as well) Weigh that against the cost of renumbering your own and customers' infrastructure somewhere down the track - say in a year or two if you're wildly successful because you've got a better deal from another upstream provider or you're royally hacked off with your existing one and it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Remember that once you go to a customer and say 'we need you to renumber' someone else's numbers are just as easy for them to change to as to yours.
Hi, I wasn't so much saying that APNIC's fees are high in comparison with the cost of setting up a data centre, which they certainly are not. I was more saying that as a small business, once you have forked out hundreds of thousands for the necessary equipment, you're not likely to be in a position to fork out US$5000 for an APNIC application, and when the alternative of grabbing a handful of /24s from an upstream provider is available at little or no cost, 95% of people will go with that. You wouldn't necessarily need to renumber all your customers, at least certainly not in one hit. If you can get a pair of providers to multihome to who don't mind you announcing the other provider's addresses, then you can get addresses from APNIC at a later stage, and simply add those to the existing addresses provided by your upstream provider. They could be gradually transitioned over at convenient times, rather than having to take everyone offline to change their addresses. It's true that you'd get into some trouble if you had to ditch the provider which gave you the addresses, but that's a risk which is offset by avoiding APNIC fees. As you're likely to have several providers, you could relegate the bad provider to a stand-by only relationship, allowing you to keep the addresses. There are plenty of options. Forcing customers to renumber would certainly piss people off no end, but it shouldn't be necessary. In our case, there were only three options providing competitive delivery to Christchurch, which made choosing providers easy, and means we'll have to get along with them, because there aren't millions of alternatives. In any case Brett, to peer at the exchange you need a BGP capable router, a physical connection to it, a block of addresses to route, and an ASN. Then just go and ask all the big ISPs nicely if they'll peer with you. You'd better have something that it's currently costing them money to get at, or some content that doesn't like going via Australia. :) Get in touch with Citylink, they'll be able to advise how best to get a connection to the exchange, and help you get it working properly. Cheers, Erin Salmon Managing Director Unleash Computers Ltd www.unleash.co.nz Phone: +64 3 365 1273 Mobile: +64 21 877 913 -----Original Message----- From: Andy Linton [mailto:asjl(a)citylink.co.nz] Sent: Tuesday, 3 May 2005 5:55 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] any help appreciated There have been some words of advice that indicate that having address space is expensive in relation to setting up a data centre. I'd have to say I disagree. Anyone setting up a data centre will be face with costs for racks, air conditioning units, power supply, rental of premises, cabling that make the APNIC fee of US$1250 (NZ$1700) for up to a /22 look like small beer. (Yes, I know there's a one off fee of US$2500 as well) Weigh that against the cost of renumbering your own and customers' infrastructure somewhere down the track - say in a year or two if you're wildly successful because you've got a better deal from another upstream provider or you're royally hacked off with your existing one and it doesn't seem nearly as bad. Remember that once you go to a customer and say 'we need you to renumber' someone else's numbers are just as easy for them to change to as to yours. _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 2/05/2005 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.11.2 - Release Date: 2/05/2005
On 3 May 2005, at 03:53, Erin Salmon - Unleash Computers Ltd wrote:
I wasn't so much saying that APNIC's fees are high in comparison with the cost of setting up a data centre, which they certainly are not. I was more saying that as a small business, once you have forked out hundreds of thousands for the necessary equipment, you're not likely to be in a position to fork out US$5000 for an APNIC application, and when the alternative of grabbing a handful of /24s from an upstream provider is available at little or no cost, 95% of people will go with that.
If $5000 is enough to break the bank, then the enterprise is doomed anyway. Abandon all hope. To look at it another way, imagine the collective cost of renumbering a data centre full of customers when you find you need to change providers (or, conversely, imagine not being able to change providers to take advantage of new and exciting opportunities because you can't afford to renumber). Any new ISP setting up today who has really weighed these options, and has consciously decided that provider-aggregatable addresses are the way to go is probably operating out of the bedroom of a 12-year-old CEO, and deserves to be avoided at all cost. (Apologies to the capable and intelligent 12-year-old CEOs on the list. I know you're out there.)
In any case Brett, to peer at the exchange you need a BGP capable router, a physical connection to it, a block of addresses to route, and an ASN. Then just go and ask all the big ISPs nicely if they'll peer with you. You'd better have something that it's currently costing them money to get at, or some content that doesn't like going via Australia. :) Get in touch with Citylink, they'll be able to advise how best to get a connection to the exchange, and help you get it working properly.
As an alternative to negotiating bilateral agreements with all the participants at the exchange (or in addition to that) you can just set up sessions with the route servers. There are plenty of big ISPs who listen to routes from the route servers at the APE and the WIX, even if there are some notable exceptions. If you have any content at all to deliver (or if you have any requirement to view content hosted by others in NZ) then peering is a philosophically-sound idea. From a business perspective, you need to compare the cost of getting to the exchange with the immediate and longer-term savings you'll get from being able to exchange traffic at a flat-rate of $0/meg. The last point that seems worthy of mention is that "BGP-capable router" is not the intimidating expense that it sounds like, especially if your requirements for peak packet throughput are moderate. There are plenty of options that cost less than a modern desktop PC. Joe
Erin Salmon - Unleash Computers Ltd wrote:
In our case, there were only three options providing competitive delivery to Christchurch, which made choosing providers easy, and means we'll have to get along with them, because there aren't millions of alternatives.
Taking addresses from these three and not being in a position to move easily and quickly to any new provider who may happen to appear reinforces the status quo.
In any case Brett, to peer at the exchange you need a BGP capable router, a physical connection to it, a block of addresses to route, and an ASN. Then just go and ask all the big ISPs nicely if they'll peer with you.
I still think there's value in having your own address space and your own AS number which you're not beholden to an upstream ISP for. Will you get more traction asking for peering if you have these? I don't know for sure but I can imagine a conversation where you heard: "We'd love to peer with you but our criteria say you need to 1) have your own address space, 2) your own AS number for us to be able to do this (and if you have those, your own national network, be able to stand on one leg for hours at a time, have completed three orbits of the earth on Soyuz 98....)" This is all about being in control of your own destiny - using your upstream ISPs numbers simply doesn't give you that. You'd
better have something that it's currently costing them money to get at, or some content that doesn't like going via Australia. :) Get in touch with Citylink, they'll be able to advise how best to get a connection to the exchange, and help you get it working properly.
Happy to help with this of course - and part of our advice having seen this bite numerous people over the years including bitter (note: this is not a beer reference) personal experience will be the address space stuff above.
participants (6)
-
Andy Linton -
Brett Johanson -
Craig Spiers -
Erin Salmon - Unleash Computers Ltd -
Joe Abley -
Simon Lyall