xtra rejecting mail from mailing lists?
Hi folks I've got a mailing list on one of my servers that appears to have a bunch of xtra subscribers on it. Postings to the list get sent to about the first 10 xtra users, and then I start getting: Jul 25 21:49:03 wilbur qmail: 996054543.173139 delivery 2330: deferral: Connected_to_203.96.92.131_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said: _421_mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz_connection_refused_from_[203.97.152.50]/ It's a fairly unhelpful message from xtra, I assume it's some kind of antispam rate limiting thing - anybody know what they're up to? These things appear to get delivered later, since I've not had any grizzles about non delivery of mail (and there's nothing in the qmail queue). Cheers Si --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:37:27PM +1200, Simon Blake wrote:
Jul 25 21:49:03 wilbur qmail: 996054543.173139 delivery 2330: deferral: Connected_to_203.96.92.131_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said: _421_mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz_connection_refused_from_[203.97.152.50]/
TCP level error; it's a transient fault, the message will be retried later (hence the word deferred). Their MTA stopped accepting connections, which may happen in high-load. (most likely it's that virus/worm/whatever of the moment) Ignore it, and wait for XTRA to fix it. Ben. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Ben Aitchison wrote:
TCP level error; it's a transient fault, the message will be retried later (hence the word deferred). Their MTA stopped accepting connections, which may happen in high-load. (most likely it's that virus/worm/whatever of the moment)
Ignore it, and wait for XTRA to fix it.
Actually, their mail server has been randomly delaying my mail that way ever since I signed up with Xtra JetStart a couple of months ago. :-/ -- Matthias --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:41:25PM +1200, Ben Aitchison said:
On Wed, Jul 25, 2001 at 11:37:27PM +1200, Simon Blake wrote:
Jul 25 21:49:03 wilbur qmail: 996054543.173139 delivery 2330: deferral: Connected_to_203.96.92.131_but_greeting_failed./Remote_host_said: _421_mta4-rme.xtra.co.nz_connection_refused_from_[203.97.152.50]/
TCP level error; it's a transient fault, the message will be retried later (hence the word deferred). Their MTA stopped accepting connections, which may happen in high-load. (most likely it's that virus/worm/whatever of the moment)
Ignore it, and wait for XTRA to fix it.
I have been, it's been happening for at least 2-3 months, hence my question. Cheers Si --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, 25 Jul 2001, Simon Blake wrote:
I've got a mailing list on one of my servers that appears to have a bunch of xtra subscribers on it. Postings to the list get sent to about the first 10 xtra users, and then I start getting: I had someone come up to me with this too. Apparently when they rang up the helpdesk about it they were told it wasn't xtra's problem. All I did was suggest they forward the bounce to postmaster(a)xtra hoping someone does read email there.
With the 2 examples I saw, it was bouncing emails sent to domains that were not hosted at xtra. However emails were sent by xtra customers using xtra's smtp server. One of them tried xtra's smtp server after they had a problem sending from their own in-house smtp server (thus eliminating perhaps a possible problem with their server). I'll try to get the actual bounce emailed to me. I think it said something about being unable to relay email Lin --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001886CB!open... Bah What a load of ... Firstly the lawyer, Mike Cronin appears to have confused mailing lists with newsgroups. Secondly he says Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle," How does a mailing list or even newsgroup archive differ from a newspaper archive? Lin --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
This makes me laugh. All Julian Angelo has done is make sure that there is enough google-fodder around to tie him to that spam incident until the end of time. Regardless of whether this is now his Crusade, it seems that he is doing the total opposite of what he started out to do. Roll on datahaven's I say On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +1200, Lin Nah wrote:
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001886CB!open...
Bah What a load of ... Firstly the lawyer, Mike Cronin appears to have confused mailing lists with newsgroups.
Secondly he says Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle,"
How does a mailing list or even newsgroup archive differ from a newspaper archive?
Lin
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Infact here is a good idea. If anyone is worried about the possibility of getting sued regarding this "Archives breech the Privacy act" rubbish. Then the answer seems to be to host them in a country that does not have such a privacy act (ie most other countries). I'm sure there are enough international people in this list that that would not be a problem. The New Zealand privacy act (and rabid laywers wanting their 15 minutes) would have IMNLO as much say over the archives in another country as they would over the www.whitehouse.gov website. Dean On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 09:50:38AM +1200, Lin Nah wrote:
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001886CB!open...
Bah What a load of ... Firstly the lawyer, Mike Cronin appears to have confused mailing lists with newsgroups.
Secondly he says Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle,"
How does a mailing list or even newsgroup archive differ from a newspaper archive?
Lin
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I have just emailed the following to Paul Brislen and Mike Cronin Dear Paul Brislen and Mike Cronin I have read the article in IDG online with the headline "Newsgroups could be breaching Privacy Act". http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001886CB!open... I strongly disagree with the stance or opinion stated there. 1. Newsgroups and mailing lists are NOT the same thing This sentence "Cronin suggests list administrators make sure they tell newsgroup members when they sign up that their postings will be archived." appears to indicate that Mr Cronin sees them as the same thing A Mailing list is like a distribution list. People subscribe to it by adding their email email address to it. Netiquette is quite clear that no one else by the person whose email address it is can subscribe to the list. Usually when they do this an email will be returned telling them they are successfully subscribed. Some even go through the extra step of not adding you on till you acknowledge the reply. It is possible to find out who is subscribed to a mailing list. Mailing list emails should be automatically archived (if it is run by a good list software). A mailing list may have an administrator but he is not necessarily the owner of the list. A Newsgroup is a discussion forum. With public newsgroups (and there are thousands of them) no one actually knows who is reading it (unless it is a private newsgroup hosted on one server). Messages are distributed amongst servers. Anyone can subscribe to them and there's definitely more readers than there are posters. Anyone can potentially set up an archive of a newsgroup. It isn't an automatic function. There are archives accessible by web. IT used to be on dejanews and is now on Google. There is no control over this. No one owns the newsgroup. I would be more than happy to meet with either or both of you to explain newsgroups and mailinglists. 2. Breach of Privacy Act "Newsgroups that archive their postings on a website may be in breach of the Privacy Act and could be required to purge their archives or take them offline, says an Auckland lawyer. Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle," says Russell McVeagh partner Mike Cronin." I do not agree with this. If you post to a newsgroup you know you are posting to a public forum. Unless the mailing list is a private list (eg of say a small group of friends), you know there will be many people reading it. I do not see why such archives should be purged since the information is made public. Furthermore if you think newsgroups should purge their archives then you will also believe that newspapers and libraries should all purge their archives too. Anything printed in a newspaper or periodical is archivable, either in print or by microfiche or CD-ROM. If the newspaper published something wrong, all they do is print an apology or retraction or correction in a later edition. As far as I know, no newspaper has every been asked to go remove the article from all their archives or all known archives of the newspaper. In the case of Mr Angelo's post to nznog, he did post it and now regrets it. It has been suggested he could post an apology to the group and that can be read with the archive. What is better is we could even insert a link from the UCE he posted to the apology so readers of the UCE could read the apology too if they so wish. I am sure no newspaper archive can do this even when they made a mistake. Apart from the mailing list's official archive, there is no knowing who else is archiving all mails or newsgroup articles. For example I could (and no I don't) have a 5 year archive of the ISOCNZ mailing list in my computer. Most newsgroup archives are NOT in New Zealand. So how would you make the archivist purge their archive? Secondly it wouldn't surprise me if someone out there is pressing CDs of archives (whether newsgroup or mailing list) to sell. How would you stop this, especially if it isn't in NZ? Someone sending a CV in for a job is sending it to one person. S/he didn't post it publicly. It is like sending a private email. Mailing to a mailing list OR posting an article in a newsgroup is NOT private communcation. Sincerely Lin Nah --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Some good points here Lin. You might also want to point out to them the following. If I were to press a CD of the NZNOG archives and have it published in order to sell, then the National Library would be required to hold a copy and make it availible to the public. Infact they hold a copy of ANYTHING 'published' in NZ. Thats the law and thats their job. You don't see them getting worried about stuff like the privacy act. (they have bigger problems most of the time) Dean On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:25:33AM +1200, Lin Nah wrote:
I have just emailed the following to Paul Brislen and Mike Cronin
Dear Paul Brislen and Mike Cronin
I have read the article in IDG online with the headline "Newsgroups could be breaching Privacy Act". http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001886CB!open...
I strongly disagree with the stance or opinion stated there.
1. Newsgroups and mailing lists are NOT the same thing This sentence "Cronin suggests list administrators make sure they tell newsgroup members when they sign up that their postings will be archived." appears to indicate that Mr Cronin sees them as the same thing
A Mailing list is like a distribution list. People subscribe to it by adding their email email address to it. Netiquette is quite clear that no one else by the person whose email address it is can subscribe to the list. Usually when they do this an email will be returned telling them they are successfully subscribed. Some even go through the extra step of not adding you on till you acknowledge the reply. It is possible to find out who is subscribed to a mailing list. Mailing list emails should be automatically archived (if it is run by a good list software). A mailing list may have an administrator but he is not necessarily the owner of the list.
A Newsgroup is a discussion forum. With public newsgroups (and there are thousands of them) no one actually knows who is reading it (unless it is a private newsgroup hosted on one server). Messages are distributed amongst servers. Anyone can subscribe to them and there's definitely more readers than there are posters. Anyone can potentially set up an archive of a newsgroup. It isn't an automatic function. There are archives accessible by web. IT used to be on dejanews and is now on Google. There is no control over this. No one owns the newsgroup.
I would be more than happy to meet with either or both of you to explain newsgroups and mailinglists.
2. Breach of Privacy Act "Newsgroups that archive their postings on a website may be in breach of the Privacy Act and could be required to purge their archives or take them offline, says an Auckland lawyer. Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle," says Russell McVeagh partner Mike Cronin."
I do not agree with this. If you post to a newsgroup you know you are posting to a public forum.
Unless the mailing list is a private list (eg of say a small group of friends), you know there will be many people reading it.
I do not see why such archives should be purged since the information is made public. Furthermore if you think newsgroups should purge their archives then you will also believe that newspapers and libraries should all purge their archives too.
Anything printed in a newspaper or periodical is archivable, either in print or by microfiche or CD-ROM. If the newspaper published something wrong, all they do is print an apology or retraction or correction in a later edition. As far as I know, no newspaper has every been asked to go remove the article from all their archives or all known archives of the newspaper.
In the case of Mr Angelo's post to nznog, he did post it and now regrets it. It has been suggested he could post an apology to the group and that can be read with the archive. What is better is we could even insert a link from the UCE he posted to the apology so readers of the UCE could read the apology too if they so wish. I am sure no newspaper archive can do this even when they made a mistake.
Apart from the mailing list's official archive, there is no knowing who else is archiving all mails or newsgroup articles. For example I could (and no I don't) have a 5 year archive of the ISOCNZ mailing list in my computer.
Most newsgroup archives are NOT in New Zealand. So how would you make the archivist purge their archive? Secondly it wouldn't surprise me if someone out there is pressing CDs of archives (whether newsgroup or mailing list) to sell. How would you stop this, especially if it isn't in NZ?
Someone sending a CV in for a job is sending it to one person. S/he didn't post it publicly. It is like sending a private email. Mailing to a mailing list OR posting an article in a newsgroup is NOT private communcation.
Sincerely Lin Nah
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On Thu, Jul 26, 2001 at 10:38:33AM +1200, Dean Pemberton wrote: Some good points here Lin. You might also want to point out to them the following. If I were to press a CD of the NZNOG archives and have it published in order to sell, then the National Library would be required to hold a copy and make it availible to the public. Infact they hold a copy of ANYTHING 'published' in NZ. Thats the law and thats their job. You don't see them getting worried about stuff like the privacy act. (they have bigger problems most of the time) Also... I keep archives, maybe Andy does too --- how far does the reach of NZs law extend? Might there be a problem with non-NZ residents keeping such archives outside of NZ? --cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Dean Pemberton wrote:
Some good points here Lin.
You might also want to point out to them the following.
If I were to press a CD of the NZNOG archives and have it published in order to sell, then the National Library would be required to hold a copy and make it availible to the public.
Infact they hold a copy of ANYTHING 'published' in NZ. Thats the law and thats their job.
You don't see them getting worried about stuff like the privacy act. (they have bigger problems most of the time)
Dean
The thing I wonder about is what is a reasonable period of time? I bet it's longer than 1 year. What is it, 3 years, 5, 7 even? If that's the case he's still screwed for some time to come. If not and there's going to be some kind of rollover/drop off period, remind me to start another thread every 12-18 months;) And my theory about my random signature file generator having some sort of A.I. regarding subject matter seems to be holding. Cheers, Andrew -- The problem with the global village is all the global village idiots. -- P. Ginsparg
Couldn't agree more. The main point would be the definition of "personal information" I guess. Isn't this considered different from information that is publically available? (IANAL) I'd really like to see these guys take on Google though.... be quite entertaining :-)
http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/UNID/29322B8165E1E256CC256A94001 886CB!opendocument
Bah What a load of ... Firstly the lawyer, Mike Cronin appears to have confused mailing lists with newsgroups.
Secondly he says Principle nine of the act requires that "an agency that holds personal information shall not keep that information for longer than is required for the purposes for which the information may lawfully be used". "I think an archive of a newsgroup could well be covered under this principle,"
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On Thu, 26 Jul 2001, Lin Nah wrote:
How does a mailing list or even newsgroup archive differ from a newspaper archive?
Sheesh. (And people reading this in the archive .. you can quote me on that.) It's the "Buffon" legal strategy, all over again! Even (and in fact, _especially_) if this turns legal and messy and public, all this will do is make "Spammer" and "Julian Angelo" forever linked in the minds of the watching public. A booming voice says, "Wrong, cretin!", JSR -- John S Russell | "What the hell is he building in there... Operations Manager | he has a router...and a table saw..." Attica/Callplus NZ | - Tom Waits, Mule Variations --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (9)
-
Andrew Cutler -
Ben Aitchison -
Chris Wedgwood -
Dean Pemberton -
Gordon Smith -
J S Russell -
Lin Nah -
Matthias Dallmeier -
Simon Blake