At 12:54 PM 7/12/01 +1300, Frank March wrote:
Under the Privacy Act, anyone is entitled to ask for information held about them on a database (a Web site qualifies as such under the Act IIRC) to be corrected or amended, or deleted should the information no longer have any purpose in being stored.
[snip] Nice argument, except for the fact that the list archives are *archives* not a database. If the law considers any website regardless of content as automatically being a database, then the law is stupid and in need of changing. Is an old newspaper considered a database just because it might have information on people? (no, its an archive) no difference here. The list archives are just an automated, electronic version of what librarians have been doing with newspapers for years - archiving articles for future record. If somebody libels you in a newspaper article, can you go around telling all the librarians in the country to cut that page out of their archive version of the newspaper ? I think not. Get a retraction printed in a future edition, yes. I don't see a difference here. Just because technology makes it *possible* to do revisionist censorship of archives doesn't mean we should...and yes, I think Joe Ableys idea is a good one :) Regards, Simon - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 01:13 PM 12/7/2001 +1300, Simon Byrnand wrote:
If somebody libels you in a newspaper article, can you go around telling all the librarians in the country to cut that page out of their archive version of the newspaper ? I think not. Get a retraction printed in a future edition, yes. I don't see a difference here. Just because technology makes it *possible* to do revisionist censorship of archives doesn't mean we should...
Yes but it is a dam sight easier to remove this info from an electronic archive than it is from a News paper, here's an idea why not use the capabilities of our technology to perform a simple request. The difference is it can be done.
and yes, I think Joe Ableys idea is a good one :)
me tooooo :-). John Lynch System Administrator (string and tape specialist) Wise Net - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, John Lynch wrote:
Yes but it is a dam sight easier to remove this info from an electronic archive than it is from a News paper, here's an idea why not use the capabilities of our technology to perform a simple request. The difference is it can be done.
'Who controls the past,' ran the Party slogan, 'controls the future: who controls the present controls the past.' - George Orwell, Nineteen Eighty-Four. I'd like all references to Andy Linton posting using the address asjl(a)tsnz.net removed from the list as well please. I don't want anyone reading the archive to know I once had this email address. That's another simple request. It could be done but it's creating a revisionist view of history. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Andy Linton wrote:
I'd like all references to Andy Linton posting using the address asjl(a)tsnz.net removed from the list as well please. I don't want anyone reading the archive to know I once had this email address.
Yeah, and I'd like all my postings ROT-13'ed, so that only those who really can be arsed to read them will do so. ;-) -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Simon Byrnand wrote:
Under the Privacy Act, anyone is entitled to ask for information held about them on a database (a Web site qualifies as such under the Act IIRC) to be corrected or amended, or deleted should the information no longer have any purpose in being stored.
[snip]
Nice argument, except for the fact that the list archives are *archives* not a database.
That's irrelevant. The act applies to "Any writing on any material" and "Any information recorded or stored by means of any tape-recorder, computer, or other device; and any material subsequently derived from information so recorded or stored" amongst other things. He has a right to access, correction and removal of the information after a reasonable time. If refuse to correct the information he can ask for a statement to be attached to it, and forwarded to people who have accessed the information. Moving the archive off shore won't help either if the information is "held by" a New Zealand agency. I.E. if the list is a UoW list but someone else hosts the archives it's probably still covered.
Is an old newspaper considered a database just because it might have information on people? (no, its an archive) no difference here. The list archives are just an automated, electronic version of what librarians have been doing with newspapers for years - archiving articles for future record.
I believe old newspapers are covered by the act. The act is at: http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1993/an/028.html As a member of the university, I'd like to see the Waikato archives adopt a policy of removal on request. If we don't someone in the University administration is libel to see a law suit and panic. We could easily end up with a blanket ban on list archives. That doesn't stop someone else, totally independently of the University, archiving the list. Or someone else hosting the list all together. Tony ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tony McGregor Mail: T.McGregor(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz Department of Computer Science Phone: +64 7 838 4651 Waikato University Fax: +64 7 858 5095 Private Bag 3105 Home: +64 7 825 5040 mobile: (021)313004 Hamilton, New Zealand www: http://www.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~tonym ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Tony McGregor wrote:
That's irrelevant. The act applies to "Any writing on any material" and "Any information recorded or stored by means of any tape-recorder, computer, or other device; and any material subsequently derived from information so recorded or stored" amongst other things.
He has a right to access, correction and removal of the information after a reasonable time. If refuse to correct the information he can ask for a statement to be attached to it, and forwarded to people who have accessed the information.
Moving the archive off shore won't help either if the information is "held by" a New Zealand agency. I.E. if the list is a UoW list but someone else hosts the archives it's probably still covered.
``Agency''--- (a) Means any person or body of persons, whether corporate or unincorporate, and whether in the public sector or the private sector; Uck.... so it applies to individuals as well? Someone could e.g. demand that certain emails are deleted and/or corrected? Wow. That could create havoc... What about newsgroups?
University administration is libel to see a law suit and panic. We ^^^^^
Freudian slip? -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Juha Saarinen wrote:
Uck.... so it applies to individuals as well? Someone could e.g. demand that certain emails are deleted and/or corrected? Wow. That could create havoc...
What about newsgroups?
Actually, there's probably a way out in the act: ``Collect'' does not include receipt of unsolicited information "Unsolicited information" would cover NZNOG postings quite well. -- Juha Take off every sig! - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Juha Saarinen wrote:
Uck.... so it applies to individuals as well? Someone could e.g. demand that certain emails are deleted and/or corrected? Wow. That could create havoc...
I guess they have to know you have them. And care. But, from my quick read, it looks very sweeping.
What about newsgroups?
if you archive them, I guess they are covered.
University administration is libel to see a law suit and panic. We ^^^^^
Freudian slip?
:} - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 2:11 PM +1300 7/12/01, Tony McGregor wrote:
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Simon Byrnand wrote:
Nice argument, except for the fact that the list archives are *archives* not a database.
That's irrelevant. The act applies to "Any writing on any material"
[snip]
I believe old newspapers are covered by the act.
The act is at:
http://rangi.knowledge-basket.co.nz/gpacts/public/text/1993/an/028.html
So if Juha, for instance, were to consider this newsworthy and write a piece setting out the information in question, by way of illustration, what then? This is a hard problem. How to balance the rights of privacy, which IMHO should be guarded, with the laws of physics. Once a thing has been said, it can not be unsaid. (x,y,z,ct) has t monotonically increasing in all cases that we know. In the digital domain a bit can be changed from 1 to 0, so it is possible to erase information without any trace. Except that a bit can also be copied tracelessly, so in fact once information has escaped into the digital domain it can not realistically be called back. For example, if I accuse Andy of egregious mopery contributing to the delinquency of a typewriter and do so on a public mailing list, what is his recourse? He can demand a retraction. If I have the information on a web page he can demand I remove it, but it is just NOT possible for me---or anyone---to find all the places in the world that might now hold copies of this quite baseless statement and remove them. -- Michael Newbery Technical Specialist TelstraSaturn Limited Tel: +64-4-939 5102 Mobile: +64-29-939 5102 Fax: +64-4-922 8401 - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
For example, if I accuse Andy of egregious mopery contributing to the delinquency of a typewriter and do so on a public mailing list, what is his recourse? He can demand a retraction. If I have the information on a web page he can demand I remove it, but it is just NOT possible for me---or anyone---to find all the places in the world that might now hold copies of this quite baseless statement and remove them.
Sure, but when he does find some one holding information about him, in NZ, the privacy act gives him the right to ask for it to be corrected. It also prescribes you responsibilities as to how you manage information you keep about him. Separate to the privacy act he may pursue you for deformation. Anyway, I think I've done my bit to contribute to the noise in the group and won't comment further. I'm just concerned that many members are proposing action that may well be illegal. It doesn't change anything that you feel morally justified. You don't make the law. The organisation that is most likely to be penalised if there is a legal problem is the University. So, I'm exiting the discussion. Tony - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Separate to the privacy act he may pursue you for deformation.
de.for.ma.tion (dfor-mshn, dfr-) An alteration of shape, as by pressure or stress.
A practical alternative to political correctness and defamation Peter Mott Chief Enthusiast 2DAY INTERNET LIMITED It's kind of fun to do the impossible - Walt Disney -/- - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
This is a hard problem. How to balance the rights of privacy, which IMHO should be guarded, with the laws of physics. Once a thing has been said, it can not be unsaid. (x,y,z,ct) has t monotonically increasing in all cases that we know.
what privacy? $ echo "whois -h whois.domainz.net.nz telecon.co.nz" | /sbin/sh --- Terence C. Giufre-Sweetser +---------------------------------+--------------------------+ | TereDonn Telecommunications Ltd | Phone +61-[0]7-32369366 | | 1/128 Bowen St, SPRING HILL | FAX +61-[0]7-32369930 | | PO BOX 1054, SPRING HILL 4004 | Mobile +61-[0]414-663053 | | Queensland Australia | http://www.tdce.com.au | +---------------------------------+--------------------------+ - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:11:23PM +1300, Tony McGregor wrote:
Moving the archive off shore won't help either if the information is "held by" a New Zealand agency. I.E. if the list is a UoW list but someone else hosts the archives it's probably still covered.
I'm not convinced I understand how the UoW could entice me to edit my archives, speaking as a resident of Canada, and with reference to an archive hosted in the US. But I'm happy to host the list too, if that helps :) Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 02:11:23PM +1300, Tony McGregor wrote:
Moving the archive off shore won't help either if the information is "held by" a New Zealand agency. I.E. if the list is a UoW list but someone else hosts the archives it's probably still covered.
I'm not convinced I understand how the UoW could entice me to edit my archives, speaking as a resident of Canada, and with reference to an archive hosted in the US.
But I'm happy to host the list too, if that helps :)
Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Right thats it - This problem has now been solved IMO. Joe has offered to run the archives and the list - Let him do that and this problem goes away. Lets not have a HUGE conversation about this. All in favour...... On Thu, Dec 06, 2001 at 09:01:06PM -0500, Joe Abley wrote: - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Fri, 7 Dec 2001, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Right thats it - This problem has now been solved IMO.
Joe has offered to run the archives and the list - Let him do that and this problem goes away.
Lets not have a HUGE conversation about this.
All in favour......
Minor operational point. if ((Joe runs the list) && (major outage problems to North America)) then mail to list doesn't work This may be a useful scenario for having the list working. Personally I only read the list for interesting sociological discusssions that occur on list so I don't care about this operataional point. Your mileage may vary. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
FYI, there's no email address on the record as it stands now, so I can't notify the gentlemen without making an IDD phone call on Monday.
He has a right to access <A>, correction <B> and removal of the information after a reasonable time <C>. If refuse to correct the information <D> he can ask for a statement to be attached to it, and forwarded <E> to people who have accessed the information.
a> he has access, b> is he asking for a correction? c> reasonable is by definition, 7 years, this msg is dated Oct 2001, d> is he asking for a correction? e> UoW is going to email each person reading it? Withdraw the messages from the archives? NO. Correct the records, YES, here's the new information: % Domainz D.R.S. Automated Registrar Interface % D.R.S. users confirm on submission their agreement to all published Terms % Last revision: 22-02-2000 - DRS-RL-v1.00 % domain_name_status: 01 Current registrar: Freeparking domain_name: telecon.co.nz domain_datecreated: 3/03/01 12:57:00 domain_datelastmodified: 21/11/01 holder_name: P A Bamberger holder_contact: P A Bamberger holder_phone: 25 789 050 holder_fax: holder_email: freeparking(a)connex.co.nz holder_address: PO Box 8325,Symonds St holder_addr_citycountry: Auckland,New Zealand technical_contact: FreeParking technical_contact_phone: +64 6 7572881 technical_contact_fax: +64 6 7572883 technical_contact_email: domains(a)freeparking.co.nz technical_contact_address_line_1: Level 2, 2 Devon St East technical_contact_address_line_2: New Plymouth, New Zealand ns_name_1: ns3.freeservers.com ns_ip_1: 209.210.67.153 ns_name_2: ns4.freeservers.com ns_ip_2: 209.210.67.154 --- Terence C. Giufre-Sweetser +---------------------------------+--------------------------+ | TereDonn Telecommunications Ltd | Phone +61-[0]7-32369366 | | 1/128 Bowen St, SPRING HILL | FAX +61-[0]7-32369930 | | PO BOX 1054, SPRING HILL 4004 | Mobile +61-[0]414-663053 | | Queensland Australia | http://www.tdce.com.au | +---------------------------------+--------------------------+ - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (10)
-
Andy Linton -
Dean Pemberton -
Joe Abley -
John Lynch -
Juha Saarinen -
Michael Newbery -
Peter Mott -
Simon Byrnand -
Terence -
Tony McGregor