[I keep trying to redirect this noise somewhere else. Seems like some peoples' mail clients don't respect standard headers, or something] On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 04:47:16PM +1200, James Spooner wrote:
Are you in fact an expert on car safety, or do you buy/travel in a car based on what you know about car safety?
I'm no expert.
If in fact you do, does this not make you a parallel to someone using windows and outlook express, who 'should know better'.
Why do you think you travel in a particular car, is it perhaps because it's available and it gets you from A to B?
Sure. I don't make a habit of travelling in cars which are not licenced to drive on the road, though, and that affords me some safety without needing first-hand, expert knowledge of the dangers involved.
I think that the Car vs Computer parallel in fact works in favour of windows in this case Joe.
I don't follow you. There are safeguards set up to ensure people don't drive in unsafe cars, regardless of how little they personally know about car safety. There are no safeguards set up to encourage people not to use unsafe mail clients. The regular virus bulletins could say "as with this other large list of security problems, this one can be avoided simply by using a different mail client", but they don't. ISPs could stop shipping OE, or could find ways to encourage users to install different mail clients, but they don't.
Check my headers if you wonder which client I use :)
So why do you use it? Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Erm ... Sorry i split the reply...too much crossposting. (I don't like posting to lists I don't subscribe to). I use it because it does the job and I take suitable precautions that its not unsafe. (Virus Protection). I use windows because my work requires it, electronic design etc. This discussions really depends on how 'safe' a 'car' is. An 'unsafe' car could be interpreted as anything thats not a large european car built like a tank. Which is my perception of non-windows clients in this situation. People buy these 'unsafe' cars because they're more accessible (cheaper), more popular, go faster (hrm?) etc. Without the knowledge of how 'safe' they really are. It all comes down to how you drive the car, if you are reckless when driving, fail to keep up with the warrant of fitness etc. The cars safety can rapidly degrade. This is how I perceive the Email Clients problem, people use their computers in a reckless manner, perhaps due to the exorbident(sp?) claims of the manufacturers 'safety' but mainly due to ignorance. Cheers James - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 17:03 1/10/02 +1200, James Spooner wrote:
It all comes down to how you drive the car, if you are reckless when driving, fail to keep up with the warrant of fitness etc. The cars safety can rapidly degrade.
This is how I perceive the Email Clients problem, people use their computers in a reckless manner, perhaps due to the exorbident(sp?) claims of the manufacturers 'safety' but mainly due to ignorance.
Unfortunately, in unpatched versions of Outlook Express, simply receiving an email and clicking on it to read it constitutes "reckless behaviour", and this is one of the main problems.... And before you say "but updates are available" what percentage of dialup based Outlook Express users are willing to spend hours online downloading an 18MB update to Internet Explorer to address the issue ? (And how many other people don't even realise there is an issue in the first place, or realise that programs might need updating) Bugs (and bad design) causing automatic and/or silent execution of incomming viruses are *THE* number one reason that email viruses are so incredibly popular these days and the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Microsoft with their Outlook, and Outlook Express "products". Regards, Simon - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 05:09:41PM +1200, Simon Byrnand wrote:
Bugs (and bad design) causing automatic and/or silent execution of incomming viruses are *THE* number one reason that email viruses are so incredibly popular these days and the blame falls squarely on the shoulders of Microsoft with their Outlook, and Outlook Express "products".
My mother-in-law happily used Eudora on windows 95 for years, and never got infected with anything. Then she managed to induce Eudora into forgetting her POP account password, and called the ISP so she could reset it. Since she had "mail problems", and since she was using an unsupported mail client, the ISP in question refused to help her until she had installed outlook express. They then gave her instructions on how to set that up with an appropriate password. The persistent flaws in the design of Outlook Express are most definitely Microsoft's fault, but ISPs are not helping in stemming the spread of the sickness. Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 05:03:18PM +1200, James Spooner wrote:
This discussions really depends on how 'safe' a 'car' is.
Just for the record, the discussion was supposed to be "why don't ISPs promote mail clients to their customers which are not insecure by design".
This is how I perceive the Email Clients problem, people use their computers in a reckless manner, perhaps due to the exorbident(sp?) claims of the manufacturers 'safety' but mainly due to ignorance.
All people need to do in order to spread these worms is use the software they were provided with, in the manner in which it was intended to be use. Do you think it is reckless to keep e-mail addresses of people you know in an address book that is integrated with your mail client? Maybe it is reckless. How would any naive user know it was reckless? Using a virus checker to make an insecure mail client safe is an interesting approach. Kind of like keeping a fire extinguisher handy so you can gas up the car whilst smoking with no risk of getting burnt. Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Do you think it is reckless to keep e-mail addresses of people you know in an address book that is integrated with your mail client? Maybe it is reckless. How would any naive user know it was reckless?
Using a virus checker to make an insecure mail client safe is an interesting approach. Kind of like keeping a fire extinguisher handy so you can gas up the car whilst smoking with no risk of getting burnt.
Yep it's plain stupid .. I'll be the first to admit that. However, humans are extremely resiliant to change and I would expect people would rather use a 'known' broken client, than have to learn an 'unknown' /safe/ client. The anti-virus protection, even though it is a cure, not prevention, would require little or no intervention for the user once installed. This means their computer doesn't 'change' in any way, making them more likely to accept the solution. IMO ;) James - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
I use it because it does the job and I take suitable precautions that its not unsafe. (Virus Protection). I use windows because my work requires it, electronic design etc. There is nothing wrong with using Windows OS as your desktop OS. I myself use windows. The problem with the virii of late is they take advantage of the homogenity of most PC setups. There is a very high
("you" doesn't mean I am aiming this at James but just speaking in general) On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, James Spooner wrote: probability that if you are using Windows as your OS, you will be using IE for your browser, OE or Outlook for your mail client and have MS Office for word processing and spreadsheet. So by targetting that they know they'll hit payload without fail. Add to the pot the high levels of internet connectivity, you end up with a very fast spreading virus that will continue until something slows it down. The problem with virus protection is you are only protected once the virus protection on your computer is updated with the cure. For many people by the time the cure is available the damage is done. So what happens between the time the virus is released and your computer's definition files are updated? How often do most people set their virus protection software to check for updates? Once per hour? or is it more likely once a day? If you know that that you are more vulnerable due to the hogenity won't it be added protection/precaution if you break a link in the chain? All the analogy about safe or unsafe cars only goes so far. Actually I was wondering if the discussion would lead to analogies with safe sex The problem is there's "safe cars" ie email client that are free or cheap that are available. The problem is perhaps education or publicity is required to make sure people know it is available or why they should break links in the fence. So yes I use windows as my desktop OS at work. Up to recently win95 was the OS for my home computer. However I don't use OE or Outlook for email nor do I use word as the editor. Every computer at work now has Star Office or Open Office. Yes there's a few machines that have MS Office. The thing is to break as many of the links in the chain. The added security or peace of mind I have is in knowing I have reduced the probability that I will contribute to the spread of a virus. No one is asking everyone to use pine or elm or mutt etc or convert to unix/bsd/linux. There are other mail clients that are not OE or Outlook. There are free ones that are as fully featured. Pegasus Mail is one example. We should be promoting it as an email client. What scares me is there are many out there who think they are ok (ie safe and protected) because they have virus protection. It is like those who think they are secure because they are behind a firewall. There are many more who do not know they are vulnerable. If after knowing the risks and having considered your options you choose to remain with the software, that is your perogative. However the lack of knowledge or education over this means most out there are not making an informed decision. People don't have to spend hours downloading a new client. Netguide, PC World and most other computer magazines now have CDs with them. Netguide has had a CD with each issue. IF these magazines could be persuaded to promote or at least have an email client and a browser in each CD issue that isn't OE and IE, there's no reason why it will take long to get the software. The magazines do not cost much. Most people spend roughly that on beer or something at a cafe. Having said all that, I will admit that I work for an ISP that sets up its customers on Outlook or OE. I think most of us know why that happens. If you don't you can email me for a longer spiel 8) Should we be doing more to educate our users? The answer would be yes. I would like to find out what other NZ ISPs are doing in this area with the hope of learning what works and what won't. That's it for now. Thanks for reading. Lin - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (4)
-
James Spooner -
Joe Abley -
Lin Nah -
Simon Byrnand