Speed of the list
Is it just me or is the list taking REALLY long to deliver things lately?
Here is the message that I sent
[lines removed]
Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.410497 new msg 113746
Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416632 starting delivery 57885: msg 113746 to remote nj.lee(a)plumtree.co.nz
Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416792 starting delivery 57886: msg 113746 to remote juha(a)saarinen.org
Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416836 starting delivery 57887: msg 113746 to remote nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz
Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.832619 delivery 57887: success: 130.217.76.30_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_2.0.0_
f7S6P0Y23521_Message_accepted_for_delivery/
Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.629689 delivery 57885: success: 203.79.82.83_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_ok_9989
79901_qp_8921/
Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.759181 delivery 57886: success: 203.79.82.14_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_OK_id=1
5bcJ3-0001YW-00/
Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.759326 end msg 113746
And here is when the list sent it out
Aug 28 18:55:18 wilbur qmail: 998981718.390982 new msg 113746
Aug 28 18:55:18 wilbur qmail: 998981718.391126 info msg 113746: bytes 8254 from
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it
arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
--
Juha
:: -----Original Message-----
:: From: owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz
:: [mailto:owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Dean Pemberton
:: Sent: Tuesday, 28 August 2001 19:08
:: To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz
:: Subject: Speed of the list
::
::
:: Is it just me or is the list taking REALLY long to deliver
:: things lately?
::
:: Here is the message that I sent
::
:: [lines removed]
::
:: Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.410497 new msg 113746
:: Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416632 starting
:: delivery 57885: msg 113746 to remote nj.lee(a)plumtree.co.nz
:: Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416792 starting
:: delivery 57886: msg 113746 to remote juha(a)saarinen.org
:: Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.416836 starting
:: delivery 57887: msg 113746 to remote nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz
:: Aug 28 18:25:00 wilbur qmail: 998979900.832619 delivery
:: 57887: success:
:: 130.217.76.30_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_2.0.0_
:: f7S6P0Y23521_Message_accepted_for_delivery/
:: Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.629689 delivery
:: 57885: success:
:: 203.79.82.83_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_ok_9989
:: 79901_qp_8921/
:: Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.759181 delivery
:: 57886: success:
:: 203.79.82.14_accepted_message./Remote_host_said:_250_OK_id=1
:: 5bcJ3-0001YW-00/
:: Aug 28 18:25:01 wilbur qmail: 998979901.759326 end msg 113746
::
::
:: And here is when the list sent it out
::
::
:: Aug 28 18:55:18 wilbur qmail: 998981718.390982 new msg 113746
:: Aug 28 18:55:18 wilbur qmail: 998981718.391126 info msg
:: 113746: bytes 8254 from
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well. Nicholas --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Hmmm almost exactly 30 mins for me that last time. Maybe it's trying, failing and then timing out. On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:44:42PM +1200, Nicholas Lee wrote:
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well.
Nicholas
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On 28 Aug 2001, at 21:44, Nicholas Lee wrote:
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well.
Could it be that the adsl list runs on a lowly pentium? -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ - the place for ports --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:44:42PM +1200, Nicholas Lee wrote:
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well.
Out of all the possible things that could be causing mail to be delayed, what makes you blame majordomo? nznog is a tiny list. I very much doubt that this is a majordomo scaling issue. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:40:48AM -0400, Joe Abley wrote:
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:44:42PM +1200, Nicholas Lee wrote:
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well.
Out of all the possible things that could be causing mail to be delayed, what makes you blame majordomo?
nznog is a tiny list. I very much doubt that this is a majordomo scaling issue.
Looks like majordomo processed the submission in about a second, in fact.
The mail was queued for half an hour on johnwayne.its.waikato.ac.nz after
leaving majordomo.
Return-Path:
At 10:25 AM 28/08/01 -0400, Joe Abley wrote:
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:40:48AM -0400, Joe Abley wrote:
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:44:42PM +1200, Nicholas Lee wrote:
Nope... my message was delivered way after several replies to it arrived.
Time to move over to Mailman.
Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well.
Out of all the possible things that could be causing mail to be delayed, what makes you blame majordomo?
nznog is a tiny list. I very much doubt that this is a majordomo scaling issue.
Looks like majordomo processed the submission in about a second, in fact. The mail was queued for half an hour on johnwayne.its.waikato.ac.nz after leaving majordomo.
I often find with both nznog and adsl that I don't see my own message for at least half an hour, yet I get peoples replies to my message relatively quickly. I assumed it might be some kind of deliberate delay to lessen the impact of a mail loop by delaying the message that is sent back to the originator. Looks like I was wrong :) Regards, Simon --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Of course if youre using reply-all then the people getting direct copies (not list distributed) will get your email directly, without lag from the list. :p
Looks like majordomo processed the submission in about a second, in fact.
The mail was queued for half an hour on johnwayne.its.waikato.ac.nz after leaving majordomo.
I often find with both nznog and adsl that I don't see my own message for at least half an hour, yet I get peoples replies to my message relatively quickly.
I assumed it might be some kind of deliberate delay to lessen the impact of a mail loop by delaying the message that is sent back to the originator. Looks like I was wrong :)
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 09:44:42PM +1200, Nicholas Lee wrote: Or ezmlm. The adsl mailing list has the same issue with slow mail as well. It has nothing to do with the processor or list software... I can trivially delivery thousands of messages per hour using a 486 over a DSL link. I would guess it's more likely DNS or Sendmail configuration issues (FWIW, I do from time-to-time see delays in nznog message turn around times of 20 minutes or so). --cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
I would guess it's more likely DNS or Sendmail configuration issues (FWIW, I do from time-to-time see delays in nznog message turn around times of 20 minutes or so).
It's a sendmail/outgoing bandwidth issue. According to the logs, nothing unusual is going on, it's just taking sendmail about an hour to churn through a mere 284 addresses on that list. qmail/ezmlm would do much better, of course. :) --Colin. ** Colin Palmer, Systems and Development Group, University of Waikato, NZ ** --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On 29 Aug 2001, at 10:25, Colin Palmer wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
I would guess it's more likely DNS or Sendmail configuration issues (FWIW, I do from time-to-time see delays in nznog message turn around times of 20 minutes or so).
It's a sendmail/outgoing bandwidth issue. According to the logs, nothing unusual is going on, it's just taking sendmail about an hour to churn through a mere 284 addresses on that list.
qmail/ezmlm would do much better, of course. :)
How trivial is it to swap from majordomo/sendmail to qmail/ezmlm? I ask not because I want to do it but because people have suggested that in the past for the ADSL mailing list and I've always refused because of the time required to make the changes. -- Dan Langille - DVL Software Limited FreshPorts - http://freshports.org/ - the place for ports --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
How trivial is it to swap from majordomo/sendmail to qmail/ezmlm? I ask not because I want to do it but because people have suggested that in the past for the ADSL mailing list and I've always refused because of the time required to make the changes.
I haven't tried qmail/ezmlm myself, but I know that qmail/mailman is really easy to setup and works really well. Simon Allard (Senior Tool Monkey) IHUG Ph (09) 358-5067 Email: simon.allard(a)staff.ihug.co.nz "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:07:50PM -0400, Dan Langille wrote:
On 29 Aug 2001, at 10:25, Colin Palmer wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
I would guess it's more likely DNS or Sendmail configuration issues (FWIW, I do from time-to-time see delays in nznog message turn around times of 20 minutes or so).
It's a sendmail/outgoing bandwidth issue. According to the logs, nothing unusual is going on, it's just taking sendmail about an hour to churn through a mere 284 addresses on that list.
qmail/ezmlm would do much better, of course. :)
How trivial is it to swap from majordomo/sendmail to qmail/ezmlm? I ask not because I want to do it but because people have suggested that in the past for the ADSL mailing list and I've always refused because of the time required to make the changes.
djb has a checklist for converting from sendmail to qmail: http://cr.yp.to/qmail/sendmail.html Running majordomo/qmail is straightforward. I've never tried ezmlm. Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Aug 28, 2001 at 07:48:22PM -0400, Joe Abley wrote: djb has a checklist for converting from sendmail to qmail: NOOOO!!!!!!! Don't do it! Run Away! Run Away! Cleanse thy self and the precious things of the shoppe! http://www.postfix.org/ That said, most people find sendmail -> postfix easier than converting to qmail. --cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
:: NOOOO!!!!!!! :: :: Don't do it! :: :: Run Away! Run Away! :: :: Cleanse thy self and the precious things of the shoppe! :: :: http://www.postfix.org/ It's not bad (we run it at IDG's listserver), but I still think Exim (www.exim.org) is the best of the lot. -- Juha --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Dan Langille wrote:
How trivial is it to swap from majordomo/sendmail to qmail/ezmlm?
The sendmail->qmail conversion can be quite painful because qmail does things, well, differently. Once you've done that, majordomo won't work because it's not compatible with qmail, luckily the next bit is much easier: install ezmlm then for each list, ezmlm-make it, then use a little bash script to ezmlm-sub each address in the old majordomo list to the new one. About 30min work including testing. The hard bit is teaching all the users to use the new interface.
I ask not because I want to do it but because people have suggested that in the past for the ADSL mailing list and I've always refused because of the time required to make the changes.
Yes, it gets considerably worse once you have things like web-based archives, and scripts that automatically generate lists, and list admins who have no local access to the list server, etc. Hence no plans to switch from majordomo here in a hurry. :P (though I'll see what I can do about the MTA performance issues...) --Colin. ** Colin Palmer, Systems and Development Group, University of Waikato, NZ ** --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 11:53:05AM +1200, Colin Palmer wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2001, Dan Langille wrote:
How trivial is it to swap from majordomo/sendmail to qmail/ezmlm?
The sendmail->qmail conversion can be quite painful because qmail does things, well, differently.
It's really not that hard. If your replacement MTA didn't do things differently to sendmail, you wouldn't need to change :)
Once you've done that, majordomo won't work because it's not compatible with qmail
That's not particularly accurate. Getting majordomo to run with qmail is not hard. Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, 29 Aug 2001, Colin Palmer wrote:
Once you've done that, majordomo won't work because it's not compatible with qmail, luckily the next bit is much easier:
Interesting... given that the NZNET list is running on qmail+majordomo. --- Matt Camp --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 10:25:38AM +1200, Colin Palmer wrote: It's a sendmail/outgoing bandwidth issue. According to the logs, nothing unusual is going on, it's just taking sendmail about an hour to churn through a mere 284 addresses on that list. Averaging the last 600+ messages, I get about 5.1K per message on average. For 284 people, assuming worst case one-to-one which isn't the case) that's, 1.4M almost to explode... if this takes 20 minutes then that's an average of only 1.2K required... My guess is it's sendmail really broken queue behavior (it serializes either completely or far too much). qmail/ezmlm would do much better, of course. :) qmail will help, it won't serialize deliveries and the expense of being a little less bandwidth efficient (slightly noticeable on a list like nznog where many email addresses are at a much smaller number of domains) ezmlm is just nasty :) If desirable, I'm more than happy to provider an exploder for as little or as much traffic you wish to put my way (within reason), or maybe you can tweak sendmail somehow (last time I hacked sendmail was 8.6.x and it was pretty terrible, but things may have changed). --cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
I can remember some guy from BSDi talking at uniforum in 98 about how sendmail was crap at this. If you get enough addresses in the mailing list which either don't resolve, or take too long to process, then it can kill the whole list. His approach to this was to penalize these addresses so harshly that they were no longer a problem Dean On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 12:11:25PM +1200, Chris Wedgwood wrote:
On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 10:25:38AM +1200, Colin Palmer wrote:
It's a sendmail/outgoing bandwidth issue. According to the logs, nothing unusual is going on, it's just taking sendmail about an hour to churn through a mere 284 addresses on that list.
Averaging the last 600+ messages, I get about 5.1K per message on average. For 284 people, assuming worst case one-to-one which isn't the case) that's, 1.4M almost to explode... if this takes 20 minutes then that's an average of only 1.2K required...
My guess is it's sendmail really broken queue behavior (it serializes either completely or far too much).
qmail/ezmlm would do much better, of course. :)
qmail will help, it won't serialize deliveries and the expense of being a little less bandwidth efficient (slightly noticeable on a list like nznog where many email addresses are at a much smaller number of domains)
ezmlm is just nasty :)
If desirable, I'm more than happy to provider an exploder for as little or as much traffic you wish to put my way (within reason), or maybe you can tweak sendmail somehow (last time I hacked sendmail was 8.6.x and it was pretty terrible, but things may have changed).
--cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Chris Wedgwood wrote: <snip>
I can trivially delivery thousands of messages per hour using a 486 over a DSL link.
You can or you do? Does Alan know about this? ;-) Phill. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Wed, Aug 29, 2001 at 08:30:59AM +1000, Phill Groom wrote: You can or you do? *can* and *sometimes* do --- the odd small mailing list with about 500 subscribers or so (I think, not checked) explodes to everyone sans those who are busted in about two minutes. If I'm slow there might be several messages to go out (moderated stuff) and five messages to each subscriber typically takes no longer than one. Does Alan know about this? ;-) Heheheh... so *thats* your preferred spam^H^H^h^Hemail address now is it? --cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (12)
-
Chris Wedgwood -
Colin Palmer -
Dan Langille -
Dean Pemberton -
Joe Abley -
Juha Saarinen -
Mark Foster -
Matt Camp -
Nicholas Lee -
Phill Groom -
Simon Allard -
Simon Byrnand