Do you feel like a second class Internet citizen?

Dean Pemberton

9 May 2012 9 May '12

9:29 a.m.

Hi all, apologies for cross-posting. With the recent launch of FYX and their "Global Mode" it's made me think about a number of points. I'd like to get your view on them, there are questions at the end so lets get started. Now I know that not all marketing is to be believed, but lets have a look at some of the recent statements made by FYX: "We need to say very specifically that we are providing a service that gives much greater access to the internet." http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=138&topicid=101761&page_no=1#621440 "We have enabled a technology we like to call "Global Mode" which creates freedom for New Zealand internet users that doesn't exist elsewhere." "So we decided to FYX the internet by removing some of the barriers that were getting in the way of great choice." "... we just do our hardest to give you the access and freedom that you deserve. Ultimately, we are about access and openness for Kiwi's." http://www.fyx.co.nz/what-is-fyx.html So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking... Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ? Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. Just like different passports really. FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. So here are my questions for people. 1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address" 2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom. 3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required? Thanks for that, look forward to the responses. Regards, Dean [1] However you define that [2] However you define THAT

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Simon Blake

9 May 9 May

9:42 a.m.

Before getting into the moral turpitude, can somebody explain to me how they're doing this? Is it a) using IP's from a (say) US provider/ARIN b) using some kind of proxy/NAT to rewrite packets onto (say) US IP space c) something else? To me, (a) seems most likely, but must run a real risk that those numbers get rebadged as NZ numbers some time in the future (by Maxmind et al). Cheers Simon On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +1200, Dean Pemberton said:

...

Hi all, apologies for cross-posting.

With the recent launch of FYX and their "Global Mode" it's made me think about a number of points. I'd like to get your view on them, there are questions at the end so lets get started.

Now I know that not all marketing is to be believed, but lets have a look at some of the recent statements made by FYX:

"We need to say very specifically that we are providing a service that gives much greater access to the internet." http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=138&topicid=101761&page_no=1#621440

"We have enabled a technology we like to call "Global Mode" which creates freedom for New Zealand internet users that doesn't exist elsewhere." "So we decided to FYX the internet by removing some of the barriers that were getting in the way of great choice." "... we just do our hardest to give you the access and freedom that you deserve. Ultimately, we are about access and openness for Kiwi's." http://www.fyx.co.nz/what-is-fyx.html

So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking...

Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ?

Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. Just like different passports really.

FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. So here are my questions for people.

1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address"

2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom.

3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required?

Thanks for that, look forward to the responses.

Regards, Dean

[1] However you define that [2] However you define THAT _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- Simon Blake simon(a)katipo.co.nz Geek for hire +64 22 402 0044

Dean Pemberton

9:46 a.m.

"The technology Fyx have in place to bypass IP location blocking uses an automatic proxy feature that is controlled by local DNS servers configured for the purpose. " http://www.techjungle.com/8093 Their FAQ also says to make sure to use their DNS servers (which might just be good practice however =) http://www.fyx.co.nz/faq.html So I'm guessing that they give you back one of their proxy IPs in response to an A record request for one of the geo-location based services they support. On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Simon Blake wrote:

...

Before getting into the moral turpitude, can somebody explain to me how they're doing this? Is it

a) using IP's from a (say) US provider/ARIN b) using some kind of proxy/NAT to rewrite packets onto (say) US IP space c) something else?

To me, (a) seems most likely, but must run a real risk that those numbers get rebadged as NZ numbers some time in the future (by Maxmind et al).

Cheers Simon

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +1200, Dean Pemberton said:

...
Hi all, apologies for cross-posting.

With the recent launch of FYX and their "Global Mode" it's made me think about a number of points. I'd like to get your view on them, there are questions at the end so lets get started.

Now I know that not all marketing is to be believed, but lets have a look at some of the recent statements made by FYX:

"We need to say very specifically that we are providing a service that gives much greater access to the internet." http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=138&topicid=101761&page_no=1#621440

"We have enabled a technology we like to call "Global Mode" which creates freedom for New Zealand internet users that doesn't exist elsewhere." "So we decided to FYX the internet by removing some of the barriers that were getting in the way of great choice." "... we just do our hardest to give you the access and freedom that you deserve. Ultimately, we are about access and openness for Kiwi's." http://www.fyx.co.nz/what-is-fyx.html

So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking...

Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ?

Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. Just like different passports really.

FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. So here are my questions for people.

1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address"

2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom.

3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required?

Thanks for that, look forward to the responses.

Regards, Dean

[1] However you define that [2] However you define THAT _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- Simon Blake simon(a)katipo.co.nz Geek for hire +64 22 402 0044

Simon Blake

9:52 a.m.

So the implication is that it is HTTP only? Some kind of moderately low tech fun with WPAD? On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:46:34PM +1200, Dean Pemberton said:

...

"The technology Fyx have in place to bypass IP location blocking uses an automatic proxy feature that is controlled by local DNS servers configured for the purpose. " http://www.techjungle.com/8093

Their FAQ also says to make sure to use their DNS servers (which might just be good practice however =) http://www.fyx.co.nz/faq.html

So I'm guessing that they give you back one of their proxy IPs in response to an A record request for one of the geo-location based services they support.

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Simon Blake wrote:

...
Before getting into the moral turpitude, can somebody explain to me how they're doing this? ?Is it

a) using IP's from a (say) US provider/ARIN b) using some kind of proxy/NAT to rewrite packets onto (say) US IP space c) something else?

To me, (a) seems most likely, but must run a real risk that those numbers get rebadged as NZ numbers some time in the future (by Maxmind et al).

Cheers Simon

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 02:29:00PM +1200, Dean Pemberton said:

...
Hi all, apologies for cross-posting.

With the recent launch of FYX and their "Global Mode" it's made me think about a number of points. I'd like to get your view on them, there are questions at the end so lets get started.

Now I know that not all marketing is to be believed, but lets have a look at some of the recent statements made by FYX:

"We need to say very specifically that we are providing a service that gives much greater access to the internet." http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=138&topicid=101761&page_no=1#621440

"We have enabled a technology we like to call "Global Mode" which creates freedom for New Zealand internet users that doesn't exist elsewhere." "So we decided to FYX the internet by removing some of the barriers that were getting in the way of great choice." "... we just do our hardest to give you the access and freedom that you deserve. Ultimately, we are about access and openness for Kiwi's." http://www.fyx.co.nz/what-is-fyx.html

So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking...

Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] ?to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ?

Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? ?If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. ?Just like different passports really.

FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. ?So here are my questions for people.

1) ?Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? ?Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address"

2) ?If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom.

3) ?Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required?

Thanks for that, look forward to the responses.

Regards, Dean

[1] However you define that [2] However you define THAT _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- Simon Blake ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?simon(a)katipo.co.nz Geek for hire ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? +64 22 402 0044

-- Simon Blake simon(a)katipo.co.nz Geek for hire +64 22 402 0044

Scott Pettit

10:06 a.m.

1) Yes - and we're spending a few $000 a month to tele-house a 2851 at LAX which we use GRE + NAT at the LAX end to get around these IP restrictions. 2) There isn't much one can do to get Sky to stop holding all the rights to anything people want to watch online. If InternetNZ did have any influence, then using it to get the various studios to roll their rights into a single package and not allow exclusive deals would lead to the likes of Netflix/Hulu etc launching in NZ. 3) I think it's risky to do it on a mass market basis, we've been very quietly sourcing masses of USD$100 iTunes cards (until the recent loophole opened with a certain prepaid credit card). You'd be amazed the number of users out there who are doing anything they can to get US-only content. I'd say our user base alone are spending over $1M NZD each year just on iTunes US content, then they have their Netflix accounts. Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly. I'm not sure why Sky don't pull finger and launch an online service that doesn't suck/lock you into using Flash and low res video. I'm still paying for a mySky HDi subscription even though I'm using iTunes US on AppleTV + Netflix HD. -Scott On 10/05/2012, at 2:29 PM, Dean Pemberton wrote:

...

1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address"

2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom.

3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required?

________________________________ The content of this message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential or sensitive. Any unauthorised used is prohibited. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where stated otherwise with appropriate authority. All pricing provided is valid at the time of writing only and due to factors such as the exchange rate, may change without notice. Sales are made subject to our Terms & Conditions, available at http://www.end2end.co.nz/info/ ________________________________

Jonathan Brewer

11:30 a.m.

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott Pettit wrote:

...

Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly.

Interestingly enough, it appears to your humble observer that the streaming will come from wherever the CDN wants to originate it, as long as the request for content appears to have originated from the US. For example, it has been observed that when streaming TV shows and Movies from the US iTunes store, more often than not the data is coming from Sydney. It was also observed that during the geo-restricted broadcasts of the NCAA Mens Basketball tournament final via CBS Sports, the streaming seamlessly transitioned between NZ based Akamai servers, and adjusted encoding rate depending on which particular node one was attached to at the time. (Observation - streaming from the node within TNZ was about 1.2mbps, and from the CallPlus node was around 4mbps.) BBC iPlayer is the only service that has been observed to stubbornly insist on serving from very far away (Nottinghamshire perhaps?), resulting in pretty rubbish performance here in NZ. -JB

Sam Russell

11:34 a.m.

I did wonder about that - South Park episodes are US-restricted, but the whole site appears to be on Akamai Sent from my iPhone On May 10, 2012, at 4:33 PM, Jonathan Brewer wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott Pettit wrote:

...

Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly.

Scott Pettit

11:48 a.m.

In my own/our users experience: iTunes is available globally on Akamai, so if you stream US content it all comes off NZ Akamai servers nice and quick Netflix check IP's both when you login and when you stream, so you can't just do DNS hacks to point Netflix via some US DNS servers to get logged in. This is why we've had to deploy tunnels to stream from the US. The hardware we've installed in the US has been positioned where we were able to peer with Amazon as Netflix comes off a mixture Amazon AWS and Akamai. On 10/05/2012, at 4:30 PM, Jonathan Brewer wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott Pettit mailto:SPettit(a)end2end.co.nz> wrote: Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly. Interestingly enough, it appears to your humble observer that the streaming will come from wherever the CDN wants to originate it, as long as the request for content appears to have originated from the US. For example, it has been observed that when streaming TV shows and Movies from the US iTunes store, more often than not the data is coming from Sydney. It was also observed that during the geo-restricted broadcasts of the NCAA Mens Basketball tournament final via CBS Sports, the streaming seamlessly transitioned between NZ based Akamai servers, and adjusted encoding rate depending on which particular node one was attached to at the time. (Observation - streaming from the node within TNZ was about 1.2mbps, and from the CallPlus node was around 4mbps.) ________________________________ The content of this message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential or sensitive. Any unauthorised used is prohibited. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where stated otherwise with appropriate authority. All pricing provided is valid at the time of writing only and due to factors such as the exchange rate, may change without notice. Sales are made subject to our Terms & Conditions, available at http://www.end2end.co.nz/info/ ________________________________

Jonathan Brewer

11:58 a.m.

As it may be of interest, were one using an alternative DNS provider, one might have a cache looking something like this: http://pastebin.com/BFjCB4Ad Note in particular the entries for "api.netflix.com" at the very bottom of the list. It's clever that someone has finally figured out how to get paid for providing a DNS service that tells lies. -JB On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Scott Pettit wrote:

...

In my own/our users experience:

iTunes is available globally on Akamai, so if you stream US content it all comes off NZ Akamai servers nice and quick Netflix check IP's both when you login and when you stream, so you can't just do DNS hacks to point Netflix via some US DNS servers to get logged in. This is why we've had to deploy tunnels to stream from the US. The hardware we've installed in the US has been positioned where we were able to peer with Amazon as Netflix comes off a mixture Amazon AWS and Akamai.

On 10/05/2012, at 4:30 PM, Jonathan Brewer wrote:

On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott Pettit wrote:

...
Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly.

Interestingly enough, it appears to your humble observer that the streaming will come from wherever the CDN wants to originate it, as long as the request for content appears to have originated from the US.

For example, it has been observed that when streaming TV shows and Movies from the US iTunes store, more often than not the data is coming from Sydney.

It was also observed that during the geo-restricted broadcasts of the NCAA Mens Basketball tournament final via CBS Sports, the streaming seamlessly transitioned between NZ based Akamai servers, and adjusted encoding rate depending on which particular node one was attached to at the time. (Observation - streaming from the node within TNZ was about 1.2mbps, and from the CallPlus node was around 4mbps.)

------------------------------ The content of this message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential or sensitive. Any unauthorised used is prohibited. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where stated otherwise with appropriate authority. All pricing provided is valid at the time of writing only and due to factors such as the exchange rate, may change without notice. Sales are made subject to our Terms & Conditions, available at http://www.end2end.co.nz/info/ ------------------------------

Tristram Cheer

12:03 p.m.

That sounds a little odd, I have a DNS server hidden away in the network that allows all my devices across multiple IP's to access iplayer,Netflix,Hulu etc etc with only a simple DNS bypass, No tunnels required. As for the FYX service and such if it becomes widespread it will be a lot easier for the players like Netflix to just nullroute the ISP ranges. As it stands the users bypassing their checks come from many ranges and many countries making it very hard to do this but FYX has painted a big target on them to have their ranges blocked by any content provider that doesn't want to give them access to their content. I honestly see the global mode service being effective in the long run, The amount of publicity the service has gotten with a large client base is very easy to stop from the content providers perspective and a good way to show the content rights holders they *ARE* actually trying to keep the geo-fence strong..... -- Tristram Cheer Network Architect - Most problems are the result of previous solutions... Tel. 09 438 5472 Ext 803 | Mobile. 022 412 1985 | PO Box 5083, Whangarei, 0140 tristram.cheer(a)ubergroup.co.nz mailto:tristram.cheer(a)ubergroup.co.nz |www.ubergroup.co.nz http://www.ubergroup.co.nz http://ubergroup.co.nz/fb https://twitter.com/#!/ubergroupltd From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Scott Pettit Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012 4:49 p.m. To: Jonathan Brewer Cc: nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] Do you feel like a second class Internet citizen? In my own/our users experience: iTunes is available globally on Akamai, so if you stream US content it all comes off NZ Akamai servers nice and quick Netflix check IP's both when you login and when you stream, so you can't just do DNS hacks to point Netflix via some US DNS servers to get logged in. This is why we've had to deploy tunnels to stream from the US. The hardware we've installed in the US has been positioned where we were able to peer with Amazon as Netflix comes off a mixture Amazon AWS and Akamai. On 10/05/2012, at 4:30 PM, Jonathan Brewer wrote: On Thu, May 10, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Scott Pettit wrote: Have seen some talk on Geekzone with people speculating by saying there's no way iTunes/Netflix streaming from the US would work for NZ users. That's not correct, one of our users are streaming either 720p or 1080p and it works perfectly. Interestingly enough, it appears to your humble observer that the streaming will come from wherever the CDN wants to originate it, as long as the request for content appears to have originated from the US. For example, it has been observed that when streaming TV shows and Movies from the US iTunes store, more often than not the data is coming from Sydney. It was also observed that during the geo-restricted broadcasts of the NCAA Mens Basketball tournament final via CBS Sports, the streaming seamlessly transitioned between NZ based Akamai servers, and adjusted encoding rate depending on which particular node one was attached to at the time. (Observation - streaming from the node within TNZ was about 1.2mbps, and from the CallPlus node was around 4mbps.) ________________________________ The content of this message and any attachments may be privileged, confidential or sensitive. Any unauthorised used is prohibited. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where stated otherwise with appropriate authority. All pricing provided is valid at the time of writing only and due to factors such as the exchange rate, may change without notice. Sales are made subject to our Terms & Conditions, available at http://www.end2end.co.nz/info/ ________________________________

Greg Soffe

11:06 a.m.

Dean, You know what internetNZ could do? It could start lobbying the government to push for US media companies, to remove location based tariffs on content in the pacific region under the APAC Economic Cooperation Treaty (which includes a free trade component). If it's easier for us to get the new media as it is avaliable we wouldn't need to start working on ways to get around restrictions that essentially close access to internet based content. Perhaps instead of "free trade" we need a "free internet" agreement. Greg Soffe Manager Telecom Internet Registry Telecom NZ ltd. -----Original Message----- From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Dean Pemberton Sent: Thursday, 10 May 2012 2:29 p.m. To: nznog Subject: [nznog] Do you feel like a second class Internet citizen? Hi all, apologies for cross-posting. With the recent launch of FYX and their "Global Mode" it's made me think about a number of points. I'd like to get your view on them, there are questions at the end so lets get started. Now I know that not all marketing is to be believed, but lets have a look at some of the recent statements made by FYX: "We need to say very specifically that we are providing a service that gives much greater access to the internet." http://www.geekzone.co.nz/forums.asp?forumid=138&topicid=101761&page_no=1#621440 "We have enabled a technology we like to call "Global Mode" which creates freedom for New Zealand internet users that doesn't exist elsewhere." "So we decided to FYX the internet by removing some of the barriers that were getting in the way of great choice." "... we just do our hardest to give you the access and freedom that you deserve. Ultimately, we are about access and openness for Kiwi's." http://www.fyx.co.nz/what-is-fyx.html So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking... Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ? Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. Just like different passports really. FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. So here are my questions for people. 1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address" 2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom. 3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required? Thanks for that, look forward to the responses. Regards, Dean [1] However you define that [2] However you define THAT _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Mark Foster

12:43 p.m.

On 10/05/12 14:29, Dean Pemberton wrote:

...

So with my InternetNZ IP technical policy hat on, it got me thinking...

Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ?

Freedom? Tough call. Holistically, yes. The argument from the 'rights holders' is that it's their content, thus theirs to do with what they wish. The argument from pretty much everyone else is 'we're all talking the same protocol(s), what does it matter where we are? And yet Geolocation services are becoming more and more relevant - as are restrictions based on (inferred) geography. If the reasons for this were purely technical ('lets serve this user their data from a closer node, for better performance and less cost') then that'd be fine. But as we're all aware, that's rarely the case when it comes to media.

...

Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more? Or does it purely come down to where a content provider believes your IP address is originating from? If that's the case then there will be times when having an IP address from a certain country is an advantage, as well as a liability. Just like different passports really.

Ive seen geolocation used to prevent fraud (sorry, your credit card comes from a country other than the one you appear to be in. Unable to complete transaction.) No doubt it does prevent (or perhaps just reduce) some of the more obvious (less tech-savvy) fraudulent CC users. But there's the case just the other day that I heard, of an AirNZ customer trying to use their AirNZ airpoints via the AirNZ website, and being unable to do so because they were overseas (no thanks to Air NZ, right?...)

...

FYX would have us believe that they are providing their users greater access to the Internet and allowing Kiwi's [sic] to enjoy the freedom of a better internet experience. So here are my questions for people.

1) Is this claimed lack of freedom something real? Do New Zealanders feel that they are being somehow restricted by having their internet traffic originate from a "New Zealand IP Address"

The number of times i've found Music Videos in my Youtube Playlist suddenly don't work due to geographic or (arbitrary) copyright restrictions (when it worked before) - and then found several other copies that work fine - is my chief geographic frustration. Oh, also: http://theoatmeal.com/pl/game_of_thrones/nz

...

2) If it is real, given that one of InternetNZs objectives is "To promote easily available access to the Internet for New Zealanders". Is there anything that InternetNZ could be doing at a policy/advocacy level to address this restriction on freedom.

Get onto whichever bandwagons include the argument that arcane geographic restrictions encourage piracy. Content providers are slowly wizing up to this for the NZ market but as someone pointed out, we're relatively small fish and don't get a lot of priority attention as a result. Perhaps InternetNZ can throw some weight behind the argument and get some attention with the rightsholders who're holding the people who *want* to buy this content, but can't, to ransom - by leaving the options of 'pirate, or go without'. Interesting to see that even the TV Networks are realising this is true... some good work by them in getting some new TV series on the air here very quickly after US screen dates, and then in making the content viewable via on-demand. Again, unfortunate that some of the rights-holders make this difficult for them!

...

3) Again, if it is real, do you think that just having FYX offering this service will encourage other providers to follow suit, and therefore solve the problem? Or is some other action required?

It's an interesting marketing angle, but one has to assume that eventually a) the geo-limits will become irrelevant due to some sanity finally prevailing, or a local player filling the gap in the market, or b) whatever technical means they have in place, will be defeated in response to the flagrant disregard for the wishes of the rights-holder. When that occurs one hopes that the other selling points (like the bandwidth model they're using, perhaps) are enough to draw in and retain business. All the technical arguments posted to date don't address the core issue, as I see it; Geographically restricting viewers by whatever means is chosen, is a policy decision being made for whatever arcane reasons the rights-holders see fit.... ultimately those restrictions wont go away until the demand for traffic from those rights-holders diminishes or until those rights-holders learn that the Internet is, indeed, the Internet, and is all about TCP/IP, not GeoPolitical boundaries. Of course, that said, there's other examples of Geo-limitations that remain in place and invisible to many in the public; like crypto export restrictions imposed by the USA. It just so happens that Game-of-Thrones (etc) is much more visible to the world-at-large...? Mark.

Lesley Longhurst

8:18 p.m.

Just to add a couple of points not mentioned so far. On 10/05/2012, at 2:29 PM, Dean Pemberton wrote:

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Are people using a "New Zealand IP Address"[1] to access the internet having their freedom impacted by not being treated the same as someone using a "US IP Address"[2] ?

Actual business impact - there are certain destinations that we (my employer) can't send email to unless we route it through our US or Canada offices. Because, apparently, nothing but spam comes from addresses issued by APNIC.

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Has Internet Citizenship got anything to do with where you are physically located any more?

For sure. I can think of a couple of examples: China's Great Firewall is one, and the other is something I don't know details of, but until fairly recently there was an issue that Blackberries couldn't be used in certain middle eastern countries, something to do with US encryption export laws I think. More relevantly, in NZ we are always going to be limited by our international bandwidth. No matter how many cables they put across the ocean, usage will increase to match availability. But the thing that gets my blood pressure up is that most of these problems are political, and everyone's looking for technical solutions. A big +1 to the comments others have made about geo restrictions encouraging piracy and lobbying the govt about that. Somebody's got to tilt at that windmill, progress can only be made by refusing to accept the status quo. Cheers, Lesley L

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participants (9)

Dean Pemberton
Greg Soffe
Jonathan Brewer
Lesley Longhurst
Mark Foster
Sam Russell
Scott Pettit
Simon Blake
Tristram Cheer