On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 09:56:19AM +1300, Tim Hoffman wrote:

A lot of this comes down to the bigger issue - as Dean put it - do we want to be a "state of Australia" or a "suburb of LA" on the internet?

Neither! We want to be a destination.

These days you can pick up a surprisingly large amount of content / dump a fair amount of your international load into Sydney.

Mostly because a lot of the content is over there, and not here. Cachefly, Google, Yahoo, Akamai etc. The more we focus on improving Australia connectivity the less chances we have of getting CDN's to come here more directly. It's like how OS/2 provided Windows support, and lost out on native applications. In some ways you have to consider what the needs/desires/wants are. To me, I don't really care if a large download comes through a bit slow, because you either wait a long time, or a longer time, it's slow enough to not be interactive, and there are no plans for Gigabit to the home in New Zealand, so it's going to stay that way. So the next thing is things like VOIP, Skype, Web browsing, Gaming, and other interactive applications. Recently the SEAMEWE3 cable broke, and latency to Singapore increased significantly. Although some providers suddenly bouncing to the US didn't help it cut options down to via Hong Kong, or via Japan to reach Singapore. Generally speaking Asia performance is significantly weaker than US performance, and some CDN's seem to think we're in Asia. So on that note having another backup cable to Singapore makes some sense, but capacity has always been limited by not only the cost to Singapore from Perth, but the cost to get traffic to Perth as well. And as far as Skype etc goes, there can still be performance degradation issues within the US, and appearing in Los Angeles can mean a higher chance of issues within the US, and even more issues if going to Europe or even more if going to Africa, South America etc. And dumping traffic in Australia won't necessarily encourage improved routing, it'll make CDN's even more willing to go via Asia, and not have an extension to Sydney, let alone Auckland. But with this growing bulk-data view of the internet it seems that it's not as important to have a global community, but instead a replicated homogeneous community with data mirrored around the world. I suppose one example of companies willing to put infrastructure in NZ is Microsoft advertising some routes within NZ, after the poor performance to Singapore issues. But even then they're only forwarding a small subset of their total network. And who should pay? The content providers, or the recipients? With regards to improving connectivity to Europe, I seem to remember reading about Internode peering at LINX, and AMSIX but I don't think anyone in New Zealand is. But I'm much more in favour of improving global availability than connectivity to some CDN's that should be in NZ, even more so considering that even with UFB's targets of 30/10 and, 100/50 for home users, the vast majority of users in the near future are limited to more like 10/1 which current capacity deals with quite well. Of course for some areas like Asia, Africa, South America it could just as easily be their end causing issues rather than our end. Ben.

Additionally, for those of you who haven't seen what Bevan Slattery has been up to, there hasn't been a lot of detail on this, but interesting to see how(if) it progresses; [1]http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/ted-pretty-bevan-slattery-plan-... [2]http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/slatterys-radical-funding-plan-... �[APX-East] will be an express cable from Australia to the US, with spurs into New Zealand and Hawaii, and branching units available at a number of locations in the Pacific Islands.� Cheers, Hoff On 20/02/2013, at 9:40 AM, Peter Lambrechtsen <[3]Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz> wrote:

So wouldn't a larger population buy more data due to size and thus get a better discount? Isn't that how typical economics works. Or am I missing something?

So wasn't that my main argument about population or lack thereof?

----- Reply message ----- From: "Jay Daley" <[4]jay(a)nzrs.net.nz> To: "Peter Lambrechtsen" <[5]Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz> Cc: "[6]nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz" <[7]nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: [nznog] New Trans-Tasman submarine cable Date: Wed, Feb 20, 2013 9:31 am

On 20/02/2013, at 7:16 AM, Peter Lambrechtsen <[8]Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz> wrote:

> How are prices high when it costs the same to land data on SCCN NZ-US as it does AU-US and there is 3 cables going into AU?

List prices are the same but the unlisted discounts are significant and they favour the stronger buyers.  AU buyers are generally much stronger because they buy more bandwidth and they can shop around between cables for prices. 

Jay

>  > NZ is a small population with a low wage economy spread across a very mountainous geography that the vast majority of people only use less than 30gb of data.... >  > Fix those issues and we will all have cheaper internet. >  > Sent from my HTC Wildfire S on Telecom's XT mobile network. >  > ----- Reply message ----- > From: "Chris Hodgetts" <[9]chris(a)archnetnz.com> > To: "[10]nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz" <[11]nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> > Subject: [nznog] New Trans-Tasman submarine cable > Date: Tue, Feb 19, 2013 11:15 pm >  >  >  > Yes - more cables does equal good...  >  > However, given the three Telco's involved... does it still mean high > prices? >  >  >  > On Tue, 19 Feb 2013 00:32:43 +0000, Christian Nielsen > <[12]cnielsen(a)microsoft.com> wrote: > > More Cables = Good.  > >  > > This is a pretty good site. Still shows Tasman-2. > > [13]http://submarinecablemap.com/ > >  > > Christian > >  > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [14]nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > > [[15]mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Kris Price > > Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 4:29 PM > > To: [16]nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > > Subject: [nznog] New Trans-Tasman submarine cable > >  > > Oh, looky, a new cable: > >  > > [17]http://www.telecom-media.co.nz/releases_detail.asp?id=3880&page=index > >  > > I'm curious about something though, maybe someone on the list can share > a > > bit of history. Is Tasman-2 still active in some capacity? > >  > > I had always assumed it was shutdown after southern cross was built, but > > it's still shown often on cable maps such as the one in that press > release: > >  > > [18]http://twitpic.com/c4wu2k > >  > >  > > Cheers > > Kris > > _______________________________________________ > > NZNOG mailing list > > [19]NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > > [20]http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > > _______________________________________________ > > NZNOG mailing list > > [21]NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > > [22]http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [23]NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > [24]http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > [25]NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > [26]http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

--  Jay Daley Chief Executive .nz Registry Services (New Zealand Domain Name Registry Limited) desk: +64 4 931 6977 mobile: +64 21 678840 linkedin: [27]www.linkedin.com/in/jaydaley

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References

Visible links 1. http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/ted-pretty-bevan-slattery-plan-... 2. http://www.commsday.com/commsday-australasia/slatterys-radical-funding-plan-... 3. mailto:Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz 4. mailto:jay(a)nzrs.net.nz 5. mailto:Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz 6. mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 7. mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 8. mailto:Peter.Lambrechtsen(a)telecom.co.nz 9. mailto:chris(a)archnetnz.com 10. mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 11. mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 12. mailto:cnielsen(a)microsoft.com 13. http://submarinecablemap.com/ 14. mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 15. mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 16. mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 17. http://www.telecom-media.co.nz/releases_detail.asp?id=3880&page=index 18. http://twitpic.com/c4wu2k 19. mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 20. http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog 21. mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 22. http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog 23. mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 24. http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog 25. mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 26. http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog 27. http://www.linkedin.com/in/jaydaley 28. mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz 29. http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Ben Aitchison wrote:

On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 09:56:19AM +1300, Tim Hoffman wrote:

...

These days you can pick up a surprisingly large amount of content / dump a fair amount of your international load into Sydney.

Mostly because a lot of the content is over there, and not here. Cachefly, Google, Yahoo, Akamai etc. The more we focus on improving Australia connectivity the less chances we have of getting CDN's to come here more directly. It's like how OS/2 provided Windows support, and lost out on native applications.

Amazon in Sydney is also a big game changer. 1. It is close enough to NZ that latency and bandwidth is pretty good 2. It has decent pricing ( even the list pricing beats most competitors for small to medium requirements ) 3. It is fully featured enough for a large percentage of uses. I was at an Amazon course in Auckland last week and there were people from 2 of the top10 NZ websites (me and another) and one of the larger IT services companies. There is/was another course in Wellington this month too... We discussed this here at length a few months ago. One advantage with the cables is that you can serve Australia from New Zealand but there are still significant bugs in NZ's national capacity and connectivity (mostly due to peering politics and the chicken and egg or low capacity since it is not needed). -- Simon Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.

Salesforce.com were talking about firing up a DC there in sydney, not sure if it happened. Have been pushing for Microsoft to do the same, but no such luck. Microsoft have at least (as you’re probably aware) gone down the path of putting a POP in AKL/WLG to at optimise their DC traffic out of NZ for ISPs that choose to peer. With luck that will stop the asia-bound microsoft traffic routing via US/JPN or SYD/JPN. From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Bill Walker Sent: Wednesday, 20 February 2013 3:47 a.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] New Trans-Tasman submarine cable And Rackspace have a presence in Sydney too (Since January).... On Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:45:28 +1300 (NZDT), Simon Lyall wrote: On Wed, 20 Feb 2013, Ben Aitchison wrote: On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 09:56:19AM +1300, Tim Hoffman wrote: These days you can pick up a surprisingly large amount of content / dump a fair amount of your international load into Sydney. Mostly because a lot of the content is over there, and not here. Cachefly, Google, Yahoo, Akamai etc. The more we focus on improving Australia connectivity the less chances we have of getting CDN's to come here more directly. It's like how OS/2 provided Windows support, and lost out on native applications. Amazon in Sydney is also a big game changer. 1. It is close enough to NZ that latency and bandwidth is pretty good 2. It has decent pricing ( even the list pricing beats most competitors for small to medium requirements ) 3. It is fully featured enough for a large percentage of uses. I was at an Amazon course in Auckland last week and there were people from 2 of the top10 NZ websites (me and another) and one of the larger IT services companies. There is/was another course in Wellington this month too... We discussed this here at length a few months ago. One advantage with the cables is that you can serve Australia from New Zealand but there are still significant bugs in NZ's national capacity and connectivity (mostly due to peering politics and the chicken and egg or low capacity since it is not needed).