By chance... since you lot have been particularly noisy this weekend on the subject of ORBS, I wanted to obtain a more rounded opinion of the value of ORBS with respect to SPAM Prevention. ISOCNZ has charged myself and three others with coming up with a policy concerning ORBS and potentially other SPAM prevention methods. :-( My understanding of the situation is as follows:- Paul Vixie contributes to/manages???? an RBL repository of Open Mail Relays on the side of www.vix.com. ie MAPS and RBL. How many carriers (even carriers with only 6 staff...) in NZ piggyback off this effort? And contribute? ORBS is a similar idea, run by AB of Manawatu Internet Services. An area of concern is that ORBS uses a method of publicity to shame Open-Relay holders into changing their status. However the publicity mechanism can also be used by Spammers to work out best SPAM procreation locations. How useful is this, and are their better ways of doing it? ========================================================= Should NZ ISP's all support RBL/MAPS? (realising that there is no requirement today, other than best customer service and best endeavours.) Is ORBS complementary? Is it appropriate? What do others think? Should ISOCNZ but out of this matter, and stick to mindlessly boring meetings with 10,000 points of order? Flames to myself at Cisco. Fabulously written, illuminating, insightful pieces will certainly receive a direct response of thanks and comments. All others >/dev/null. Rgds Roger De Salis -- \_ Roger De Salis Cisco Systems NZ Ltd
I must point out before replying that the opinions that are expressed here are my own, and have nothing to do with my employer. Else I might get in trouble.
By chance... since you lot have been particularly noisy this weekend on the subject of ORBS, I wanted to obtain a more rounded opinion of the value of ORBS with respect to SPAM Prevention.
ISOCNZ has charged myself and three others with coming up with a policy concerning ORBS and potentially other SPAM prevention methods. :-(
I'm sorry.
My understanding of the situation is as follows:-
Paul Vixie contributes to/manages???? an RBL repository of Open Mail Relays on the side of www.vix.com. ie MAPS and RBL. How many carriers (even carriers with only 6 staff...) in NZ piggyback off this effort? And contribute?
My company (Samizdat New Media Solutions) uses RBL, but not ORBS due to the political issues you highlight below.
ORBS is a similar idea, run by AB of Manawatu Internet Services. An area of concern is that ORBS uses a method of publicity to shame Open-Relay holders into changing their status. However the publicity mechanism can also be used by Spammers to work out best SPAM procreation locations. How useful is this, and are their better ways of doing it? ========================================================= Should NZ ISP's all support RBL/MAPS? (realising that there is no requirement today, other than best customer service and best endeavours.)
RBL yes. ORBS no. Due to Alan's propensity towards using the ORBS database to further his own ends I would advise people to steer clear of ORBS. Infact, I am supprised that domainz (and thus actrix) are not already in the database. Alan has repeatedly added certain unnamed ISP's to the ORBS database because of personal issues he has with these companies, and not for open-relay reasons. He also actively scans (or atleast used to) networks that are known to be dynamic IP dial-up pools looking for open relays. I agree that these people need to learn how to secure their systems, especially if they are static IP customers, however dynamic ip customers addresses will change and thus adding them to the database will be a completely fruitless, timewasting effort. Also scanning networks for open relays can be contrused as an act of war. Of course, this is my understanding of those situations, and not neccesarilly fact.
Is ORBS complementary? Is it appropriate? What do others think?
I believe, and this is IMHO ofcourse, that Alan et al have gone about this issue the wrong way. We all know that something needs to be done about this, but we don't all agree with how it should be implemented.
Should ISOCNZ but out of this matter, and stick to mindlessly boring meetings with 10,000 points of order?
You really need an answer to this? James Tyson --- Samizdat New Media Solutions --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 8 May 2000, James Tyson wrote:
I believe, and this is IMHO ofcourse, that Alan et al have gone about this issue the wrong way. We all know that something needs to be done about this, but we don't all agree with how it should be implemented.
Also IMHO: Vigilante-style action to "solve" the problem of spam relaying antagonises people, does damage to the industry's credibility as a whole, and goes against the spirit of what the 'net is about (much like spam itself, really). Just like distributed DOS attacks, we can rely on people to find new ways of abusing a "public" resource, whether through spamming or otherwise. Part of the problem is having legalling enforcable acceptable use policies; another part is using technology to block the worst of it... I think ORBS throws the baby, the bathwater, and a good deal of the plumbing and fixtures out the window. I think it takes the technical component of the "spam solution" too far. People being people are disclined to be helpful, whether your cause is "justified" or not, if you go to great pains to piss them off. -- Josh Bailey (joshbailey(a)lucent.com) --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 8 May 2000, Roger De Salis wrote:
Paul Vixie contributes to/manages???? an RBL repository of Open Mail Relays on the side of www.vix.com. ie MAPS and RBL. How many carriers (even carriers with only 6 staff...) in NZ piggyback off this effort? And contribute?
CLEAR Net's Mail+ product includes inbound mail filtering using the MAPS RBL.
ORBS is a similar idea
The MAPS RBL is a database of mail relays which are known to have been abused; ORBS is a database of mail relays which are promiscuous, and hence have the potential to be abused. The most common criticism I have heard of ORBS (aside from allegations of port scanning and unprompted relay testing) is that spammers might use ORBS as a directory of open relays through which to distribute UCE. In this manner ORBS can be seen as an offensive tool against victim mail relays which _don't_ protect themselves using ORBS. Incidentally, the word on the street is that ORBS is not usable in anything other than a hobbyist environment, since it causes too much legitimate mail to be discarded. The various MAPS databases, on the other hand, whilst catching less spam, reputedly suffer less from false positives.
Should NZ ISP's all support RBL/MAPS? (realising that there is no requirement today, other than best customer service and best endeavours.)
I think ISPs should do what they want, and customers should choose ISPs based on what they can do for them. I cannot imagine an environment in which mail relays would be _required_ to refuse connections based on any particular blacklist.
Is ORBS complementary? Is it appropriate? What do others think?
If you use ORBS as a list of open relays, then the only question is whether it is accurate and up-to-date. If you use it to selectively refuse mail, the further question arises of whether _all_ mail distributed by an open relay is necessarily spam.
Should ISOCNZ but out of this matter, and stick to mindlessly boring meetings with 10,000 points of order?
What do ISOCNZ hope to do? They have no mandate to regulate ISPs and private mail relays, and any endorsement of any particular blacklist of ISOCNZ is probably of little interest to anybody else (isn't it?) Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (4)
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James Tyson -
Joe Abley -
Josh Bailey -
Roger De Salis