I'd probably agree with Mark that a warning was in order, if not for the fact that we received spam from another Orcon customer, FusionDigital, only last month. That one was trying to sell me bandwidth, ports, etc Come on Seeby, I think some serious LARTing is in order... Gordon --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Advertised in the DOMINION newspaper today: http://www.registrar.org.nz/docs/srsrfi.jpg RFI issued in Microsoft Word format only. I have converted it to text and reformatted to make readable. Interested folk may read at: http://www.registrar.org.nz/docs/srsrfi.txt - PWM "Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something!" Thomas A. Edison --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
After discussions with the secretary of the Internet Soc (David Farrar) and Domainz CEO (Derek Locke), we have agreed to suspend Strongnet fron the NZ domainname system pending an investigation. This was done 5 minutes ago. Rgds Roger De Salis Gordon Smith wrote:
I'd probably agree with Mark that a warning was in order, if not for the fact that we received spam from another Orcon customer, FusionDigital, only last month. That one was trying to sell me bandwidth, ports, etc
Come on Seeby, I think some serious LARTing is in order...
Gordon
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
-- \_ Roger De Salis rdesalis(a)cisco.com
With respect to both FusionDigital and Strongnet, I have talked to both
companies / people involved, and let them know that I don't approve of the
way that they choose to do their marketing.
However in the case of both companies, they have their own netwblocks and
are simply routed via us - so if we cut them off they would simply move to
another provider of wholesale services like Global-Gateway.
A suggestion has been made by more than one party that if we don't cut
StrongNet off, then this will result in Orcon's netblocks being blocked from
other networks. Considering that we support around 40 ISP's and many web
hosting companies this is not constructive at all - I would point out again
that most ISP's that connect through us actually have their own netblocks -
so blocking just those ranges if people are going to take that course of
action would be more sensible - however I don't agree with blocking any
ranges at all because it 'breaks the Internet'.
I find it strange that if an ISP on Global-Gateway or Clear's network
spams - then the ISP is contacted and not Global-Gateway, but if an ISP
spams via our network, then we are generally contacted and abused directly.
Cheers
Seeby
Orcon Internet - www.orcon.net.nz
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Smith"
I'd probably agree with Mark that a warning was in order, if not for the fact that we received spam from another Orcon customer, FusionDigital, only last month. That one was trying to sell me bandwidth, ports, etc
Come on Seeby, I think some serious LARTing is in order...
Gordon
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, Oct 29, 2001 at 12:54:10PM +1300, Seeby - Orcon Internet wrote:
I find it strange that if an ISP on Global-Gateway or Clear's network spams - then the ISP is contacted and not Global-Gateway, but if an ISP spams via our network, then we are generally contacted and abused directly.
What makes you think that CLEAR and Telecom don't get contacted when their wholesale customers misbehave? [I know for a fact that the transit providers of CLEAR and Telecom receive complaints when customers of CLEAR and Telecom misbehave] You seem to be saying that your customers get different treatment when you receive reports of abuse depending on what line of business they are in. That seems surprising. The argument that "if we cut them off they will buy service elsewhere" would seem to apply to any customer. The fact that the customers in question operate their own PI netblocks seems irrelevant. Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Joe Abley wrote:
You seem to be saying that your customers get different treatment when you receive reports of abuse depending on what line of business they are in. That seems surprising.
I think what Seeby might be saying, albeit obliquely, is that Orcon doesn't want to become the next AOL by cutting off downstream ISPs, thus joepardising its revenue base. Also, imagine all the customer poaching spamming that would take place if Orcon went tits-up. Doesn't bear thinking about, really. -- Regards, Juha --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Juha Saarinen wrote:
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Joe Abley wrote:
You seem to be saying that your customers get different treatment when you receive reports of abuse depending on what line of business they are in. That seems surprising. I think what Seeby might be saying, albeit obliquely, is that Orcon doesn't want to become the next AOL by cutting off downstream ISPs, thus joepardising its revenue base.
I understand Seeby's stance and believe a strong warning is required. However based on Bruce Simpson's report (aardvark today), Philip Hunt's definition of spam is somewhat different to ours. So it sounds like he needs to be educated as to what UCE means. I do think that wholesale suppliers (remind me to check with my boss) should ensure their contracts with ppl they supply contain clauses of what happens when AUP/T&C is breached. Unfortunately at this day and age, the fact that they are an ISP doesn't mean they know much about netiquette. Example of what happens to suppliers who do not have such clauses would be to look at what happened to the company that was the ISP of Spamford (sp) Wallace (Thanks to Simon Lyall for reminding me of this).
Also, imagine all the customer poaching spamming that would take place if Orcon went tits-up. Doesn't bear thinking about, really. Definitely not. However now that he has been warned, if he does it again, I think Orcon should terminate the contract.
regards Lin [ Perhaps I should have bought a can or two of spam while it was on special at foodtown when I saw it on Sat and sent it to strongnet. ] --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Lin Nah wrote:
Example of what happens to suppliers who do not have such clauses would be to look at what happened to the company that was the ISP of Spamford (sp) Wallace (Thanks to Simon Lyall for reminding me of this).
It was AGIS, here is a story that points to Cyber Promotions being a major contributing factor. http://www.internetnews.com/isp-news/article/0,,8_313771,00.html Just about every contract I've seen around here, (by our customers and suppliers) has clauses that allow termination in the event of excessive spamming. -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz ihug, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Simon Lyall wrote:
Just about every contract I've seen around here, (by our customers and suppliers) has clauses that allow termination in the event of excessive spamming.
How is "excessive spamming" defined and measured? The way you phrase it, it would appear that a certain amount of spamming is permitted. -- Regards, Juha --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Simon Lyall wrote:
Just about every contract I've seen around here, (by our customers and suppliers) has clauses that allow termination in the event of excessive spamming.
I'm going to say this once more and then I'm going back to sleep. Unless you get this issue in front of your commercial and legal people and get them to *ACT* on this type of clause then these clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on. This list isn't the place to solve this issue. Get your commercial manager/lawyers to act, tell the naughty customer and inform the list about the operational issues the commercial action generates. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Andy Linton wrote:
Unless you get this issue in front of your commercial and legal people and get them to *ACT* on this type of clause then these clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on. This list isn't the place to solve this issue.
In the past I have pointed thus clause out to wholesale customers when they have been a little slow getting a spammer sorted out. In all cases they have fixed the problem although I have a vague memory of some ip's being null routed at one point. You'll always have some low level spam problem however, like the person a few weeks ago who was going around cyber cafes in Wellington (several a day I remember) and sending out email spams from each one. I'm sure that Orcon and Strongnet have been having some discussion over this issue. So far this whole thing as been a one-off. If Strongnet were doing it every week then I suspect that wouldn't last very long. -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz ihug, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Andy wrote:
Unless you get this issue in front of your commercial and legal people and get them to *ACT* on this type of clause then these clauses aren't worth the paper they're written on. This list isn't the place to solve this issue.
Andy has a point. How many people here actually have power to enforce commercial contracts? ie either are a director/manager or have delegated authority to terminate contracts? Getting back to the issue at hand, I believe Seeby does have power to act in this matter as he is the commercial manager. - PWM "Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something!" Thomas A. Edison --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
1) The essence of my position is that I don't feel comfortable acting as judge, jury and excecutioner for ISP's connected to our Network. I wholeheartedly agree that they should know better than to act the way they have, but ultimately I believe in karma and if they have done wrong then they will get what is comming to them without me having to step in and cut anyone off. 2) I do believe that Orcon gets a larger workload in terms of being 'mother hen' than say Global-Gateway. For instance we are StrongNet's supplier, and their actions have created a reasonable amount of work for me. But Global-Gateway is our primary upstream provider, and I don't believe that anyone has called up Global-Gateway and said for example 'Orcon is a customer of yours and Strongnet is a customer of theirs and Strongnet has spamed so you should block all Orcon's netblocks!' 3) For reference, I would like to say that Orcon is in a very stable position at present and the chances of us going 'tits-up' I consider to be extremely remote. Cheers Seeby Orcon Internet - www.orcon.net.nz
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Joe Abley wrote:
You seem to be saying that your customers get different treatment when you receive reports of abuse depending on what line of business they are in. That seems surprising.
I think what Seeby might be saying, albeit obliquely, is that Orcon doesn't want to become the next AOL by cutting off downstream ISPs, thus joepardising its revenue base.
Also, imagine all the customer poaching spamming that would take place if Orcon went tits-up. Doesn't bear thinking about, really.
Regards,
Juha
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Seeby and all, I have been silently following this discussion and/or thread. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me! :( Seeby - Orcon Internet wrote:
1) The essence of my position is that I don't feel comfortable acting as judge, jury and excecutioner for ISP's connected to our Network.
I wholeheartedly agree that they should know better than to act the way they have, but ultimately I believe in karma and if they have done wrong then they will get what is comming to them without me having to step in and cut anyone off.
2) I do believe that Orcon gets a larger workload in terms of being 'mother hen' than say Global-Gateway. For instance we are StrongNet's supplier, and their actions have created a reasonable amount of work for me. But Global-Gateway is our primary upstream provider, and I don't believe that anyone has called up Global-Gateway and said for example 'Orcon is a customer of yours and Strongnet is a customer of theirs and Strongnet has spamed so you should block all Orcon's netblocks!'
3) For reference, I would like to say that Orcon is in a very stable position at present and the chances of us going 'tits-up' I consider to be extremely remote.
Cheers Seeby
Orcon Internet - www.orcon.net.nz
On Sun, 28 Oct 2001, Joe Abley wrote:
You seem to be saying that your customers get different treatment when you receive reports of abuse depending on what line of business they are in. That seems surprising.
I think what Seeby might be saying, albeit obliquely, is that Orcon doesn't want to become the next AOL by cutting off downstream ISPs, thus joepardising its revenue base.
Also, imagine all the customer poaching spamming that would take place if Orcon went tits-up. Doesn't bear thinking about, really.
Regards,
Juha
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
-- Jeffrey A. Williams Spokesman for INEGroup - (Over 118k members strong!) CEO/DIR. Internet Network Eng/SR. Java/CORBA Development Eng. Information Network Eng. Group. INEG. INC. E-Mail jwkckid1(a)ix.netcom.com Contact Number: 972-447-1800 x1894 or 214-244-4827 Address: 5 East Kirkwood Blvd. Grapevine Texas 75208 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
I agree I'm going to stop posting on this matter because there are more useful ways to spend time, and for anyone who wants to keep telling me to cut StrongNet off I'll leave you with this: "he that is without sin amongst you, cast the first stone" (John 8) ;-) Cheers Seeby Orcon Internet - www.orcon.net.nz
Seeby and all,
I have been silently following this discussion and/or thread. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me! :(
--------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (10)
-
Andy Linton -
Gordon Smith -
Jeff Williams -
Joe Abley -
Juha Saarinen -
Lin Nah -
Peter Mott -
Roger De Salis -
Seeby - Orcon Internet -
Simon Lyall