RE: [nznog] Multicast status in New Zealand
Over 500 clients of Xtra voluntarily registered and received Radio New Zealand and BBC World Live as Multicast on Telecoms dial up service for 3 years from 1998. I attended and observed when Telecom engineers enabled the same service via adsl in Wellington as multicast sourced from my servers in Akl in 2000. If i was in the Ministry of Health and needed to distribute 3,000 * 10m bytes PDF document from my source server to all distribution points within 60 minutes (3GigaBytes) no New Zealand network can do it. The distribution server and network would fail. If I used multicast and have a 256kbit multicast injection source the upload to all 3000 GPs will be complete in less than 10 minutes. The clients will still be billed for 3 gigabytes if they were being changed for local traffic and the rest of the national network would remain stable, especially for servers colocated with the originating server. If future spam blocking uses a signature system, multicast would enable this information to be distributed to all enterprise mail servers instantly and efficiently using multicast distribution... If I was implementing Maori Television and Youth Radio I would use multicast for distribution of the network transmission to reach 150 National distribution points where I would convert the multicast program for terrestrial transmission and in one step have positively changed the operational budget as well as reduced complexity of distribution. Yes I would still have to pay for each clients data charges... If I ran Correspondence School I would use multicast... If I was the TAB I would use it... I could give you 20 project scenarios that unicast can not implement in the real world. All unicast can do in every application is show the prototype concept - scale-up can not occur without multicast... This is really an Interconnect issue: customers should have network access to inject on a case by case situation... It is not up to the networks to be arbitrarily prohibiting this protocol... Please name another network protocol that could make such a difference and which is disabled ... Its like saying that the protocol extensions enabling mobile TXT messaging should have been blocked until each application was identified. I thought that Telecom, Telstra etc stopped "telling" customers what are permissible applications... Telecom and Telstra etc are supposed to implement enabling technologies which can be used by its customers who know there own current and future applications... In my professional opinion if the Boards of both these organisations understood the damage that this decision does to their clients network application capabilities, all of those executives involved would be gone. New Zealand has never had a real Internet as far as I am concerned due to this network management decision. Multicast is a broadcast service and without it the network remains unicast spaghetti, like pieces of string with empty cans of W* Baked Beans on each end... If Probe does not require multicast as a mandatory network service then the future of that service will be DOA... Due to public obfuscation of the process I don't know what they thought they required anyway. My final view on this is; turn it on and make the interconnect arrangements necessary for peering at wix and ape before one or more customers takes this to the Commissioner as an interconnect issue. Michael Sutton +64 4 4759235 www.awacs.co.nz -----Original Message----- From: Donald Neal [mailto:Donald.Neal(a)telecom.co.nz] Sent: Friday, June 27, 2003 12:41 To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Multicast status in New Zealand My own opinion - and I must stress that it is just my opinion - is that this will be exactly Telecom's attitude. To change the answer you'd need to change the question. If you say "Look, to provide new service X which your customers will want, you need to enable IP multicasting", that's a different issue. But that would require the identification of service X. - Donald Neal ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- "This communication, including any attachments, is confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you should not read it - please contact me immediately, destroy it, and do not copy or use any part of this communication or disclose anything about it. Thank you." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- _______________________________________________ Nznog mailing list Nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
Over 500 clients of Xtra voluntarily registered and received Radio New Zealand and BBC World Live as Multicast on Telecoms dial up service for 3 years from 1998. Radio NZ used to stream their shows from their website. ie Morning report, Kim Hill's (at the time) 9 - noon etc. When they stopped doing it, I (or someone I know) inquired why. From memory the reason given is because they could be in breach of copyright (with APRA and others) for streaming as some of the content during those shows are music being
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Michael Sutton wrote: played or stuff from other networks. By the sounds of it, the only way to do it and not breach is for someone to edit the recording to remove all the stuff they don't own copyright of. I had hoped that in time they would be able to sort out their copyright agreements with various organisations to include online streaming. If this is still the reason why their shows aren't streamed then it may still be a barrier to other networks streaming online. Hence Simon Lyall's post about jumping the hoops wiht APRA. IF they can fine a cafe owner for playing a cassette/CD without paying copyright, goodness knows what they'll do to someone streaming music online. Having written that, I do not know how the other radio stations that stream online have avoided the copyright problems.
If I was implementing Maori Television and Youth Radio I would ... If I ran Correspondence School I would use multicast... I think some problems we face in implementation sometimes tend to be more political than technical.
I thought that Telecom, Telstra etc stopped "telling" customers what are permissible applications... Telecom and Telstra etc are supposed to implement enabling technologies which can be used by its customers who know In an ideal world perhaps. However in real live there appears to be The "is there demand?" "will it reduce costs/increase revenue?" "What is
Some of the target audience in the groups above tend to live in rural areas and it is a challenge for them to get a 56k dialup connection going (without worrying about line quality, electric fences etc) let alone worry about high speed internet. Hence the need for Project Probe. the cost of implementation?" will have to be answered to their management/shareholder's ROI satisfaction. Current revenue model means they can get more revenue providing video on demand (for $). Why introduce something like multicast when you can charge per Mb(or Gb) for bandwidth used over ADSL? Telecom has done the same thing for other technologies, no reason for them to chage their modus operandi for the internet. And as some have pointed out, apart from popular live events like rugby/soccer etc, most things are on demand things. Events like the America's cup races would have reduced bandwidth used. However most people have a TV set and so that is easier to use (for the ordinary punter) than using the internet. On Fri, 27 Jun 2003, Cameron Kerr wrote:
On Fri, Jun 27, 2003 at 12:45:16PM +1200, Nathan Ward wrote:
"The mbone is dead" - Greg Shepherd, Uniforum 2002. Does anyone know where I can get a copy of this?
Papers presented at Uniforum aren't available online unless the authors of those papers put them on their websites themselves. As it was a comment given during the persentation in reply to David's presentation, I don't think it is online. I am hoping that this year's uniforum papers will be made available online. Even if not the whole thing, the papers/presentations of interest to NZNOG type people. After all if NANOG can' do it, why can't NZNOG? Cameron, if you wish to attend Uniforum this year, it is next week and so you should consider registering asap regards lin
On Mon, Jun 30, 2003 at 11:20:32PM +1200, Lin Nah wrote:
Some of the target audience in the groups above tend to live in rural areas and it is a challenge for them to get a 56k dialup connection going (without worrying about line quality, electric fences etc) let alone worry about high speed internet. Hence the need for Project Probe.
That raises an interesting question. If a primary problem with POTS is with electric fences creating a large amount of interference, how on earth is ADSL going to fare??? Surely its higher frequencies would be even more messed up. Or would they use wireless for people in that position? -- Cameron Kerr cameron.kerr(a)paradise.net.nz : http://nzgeeks.org/cameron/ Empowered by Perl!
On Monday, Jun 30, 2003, at 07:20 Canada/Eastern, Lin Nah wrote:
I am hoping that this year's uniforum papers will be made available online. Even if not the whole thing, the papers/presentations of interest to NZNOG type people. After all if NANOG can' do it, why can't NZNOG?
The presenters' deadline to submit presentation material is 4 July. I presumed this was so that there was time to get the material on a web page ready for the conference. Joe
participants (4)
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Cameron Kerr -
Joe Abley -
Lin Nah -
Michael Sutton