--- andy(a)nosignal.org wrote:---------------- ip is a means to an end, I don't craft packets for fun, I do work or have fun, and ip occurs as a way to send my messages from A to B. --------------------------------------------- ding, ding, ding! From the many lists discussing these issues recently, we finally have a winner! Most folk don't care about v4, v6, v8 or v<insert stuff here>. They want to do something and they 'just want it to work'. 99.999% couldn't give less than a crap how that happens. scott BTW 6,525,170,264 x .00001 = 65250 That's this: World — Population: 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.) https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/xx.html times one minus five nines 65250 is about how many of there are who do give more than a crap about how that happens. Beer...MMMM... 8-)
Scott Weeks wrote:
--- andy(a)nosignal.org wrote:---------------- ip is a means to an end, I don't craft packets for fun, I do work or have fun, and ip occurs as a way to send my messages from A to B. ---------------------------------------------
ding, ding, ding! From the many lists discussing these issues recently, we finally have a winner! Most folk don't care about v4, v6, v8 or v<insert stuff here>. They want to do something and they 'just want it to work'. 99.999% couldn't give less than a crap how that happens.
Thank you for bringing this thread full circle back to where it started. People want porn. Free porn site opens on IPv6 only People want this IPv6 thingybob so they can get their free porn ISP starts seeing increase in v6 tunneled traffic People are now v6erised People start doing other stuff via v6 without realising it ISP sees more increase in v6 tunnel traffic etc.
BTW 6,525,170,264 x .00001 = 65250
That's this:
World — Population: 6,525,170,264 (July 2006 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/xx.html
times one minus five nines
65250 is about how many of there are who do give more than a crap about how that happens. Beer...MMMM... 8-)
So you are saying that there are only 65,250 IP/IT engineers in the world or people that work in IP related fields ?.. hmm, or are you saying that there are only 65,250 clueful IP/IT engineers in the world or people working in related fields ? Feel like citing references for your 99.999% figure ? -- Steve.
On 12/04/2007, at 6:34 AM, Steve Phillips wrote:
ISP starts seeing increase in v6 tunneled traffic
Steve, you mean to assume that ISPs actually look at the traffic they are carrying? If 20,000 v6 users in NZ started tunneling between each other and created ipv6 bittorrent trackers to carry porn and 0-day exploits, I think most ISPs would have no idea that was happening over their network. best regards, truman
Truman Boyes wrote:
On 12/04/2007, at 6:34 AM, Steve Phillips wrote:
ISP starts seeing increase in v6 tunneled traffic
Steve, you mean to assume that ISPs actually look at the traffic they are carrying? If 20,000 v6 users in NZ started tunneling between each other and created ipv6 bittorrent trackers to carry porn and 0-day exploits, I think most ISPs would have no idea that was happening over their network.
This may have been the case a couple years ago, but I suspect ISPs today would notice (assuming we're talking significant traffic volumes): - increase in international bandwidth consumption; - decrease in effectiveness of their DPI/QoS boxes; - increase in "unknown protocol" Very quick netflow and/or DPI analysis would show what's going on. If it starts hitting the bottom line, the ISPs will figure it out damn quick. Certainly I used to notice things like this from Netflow data. If the traffic volume is low enough, you'd probably miss it... but we're talking BT here, right? aj.
On 12/04/2007, at 2:53 PM, Alastair Johnson wrote:
Truman Boyes wrote:
On 12/04/2007, at 6:34 AM, Steve Phillips wrote:
ISP starts seeing increase in v6 tunneled traffic
Steve, you mean to assume that ISPs actually look at the traffic they are carrying? If 20,000 v6 users in NZ started tunneling between each other and created ipv6 bittorrent trackers to carry porn and 0-day exploits, I think most ISPs would have no idea that was happening over their network.
This may have been the case a couple years ago, but I suspect ISPs today would notice (assuming we're talking significant traffic volumes):
- increase in international bandwidth consumption; - decrease in effectiveness of their DPI/QoS boxes; - increase in "unknown protocol"
Very quick netflow and/or DPI analysis would show what's going on. If it starts hitting the bottom line, the ISPs will figure it out damn quick.
Certainly I used to notice things like this from Netflow data. If the traffic volume is low enough, you'd probably miss it... but we're talking BT here, right?
aj.
Greetings a.j., I would expect traffic volumes would be no more significant than today's volumes which are already full of p2p. I believe ISPs just don't care that much. As long as they are making some margin, then there is no significant interest (aside from stochastic modeling for fun) in seeing how much tunneled v6 a provider is carrying. They just wouldn't care, unless, as you point out, this is being used to avoid DPI/QoS boxes. The number of ISPs that monitor these types of things in detail would be far and in between. I believe that if we proposed a pop quiz to the top 10 ISPs in NZ and asked them how much GRE or IPIP traffic they carry a day, the answer would generally be "not sure". But I bet the top 10 ISPs would know pretty close to how many Mbps / Gbps they are sending to international. truman
Howdy, Truman. :) Truman Boyes wrote:
I would expect traffic volumes would be no more significant than today's volumes which are already full of p2p. I believe ISPs just don't care that much. As long as they are making some margin, then there is no significant interest (aside from stochastic modeling for fun) in seeing how much tunneled v6 a provider is carrying. They just wouldn't care, unless, as you point out, this is being used to avoid DPI/QoS boxes. The number of ISPs that monitor these types of things in detail would be far and in between. I believe that if we proposed a pop quiz to the top 10 ISPs in NZ and asked them how much GRE or IPIP traffic they carry a day, the answer would generally be "not sure". But I bet the top 10 ISPs would know pretty close to how many Mbps / Gbps they are sending to international.
The problem is (from my experience at ISPs, and generally being in touch with the industry in NZ) is that they *aren't* making a fantastic margin at the moment, and they generally keep a very close eye on their International bandwidth consumption and what protocols are consuming the majority of that traffic. An unexpected change in protocol utilisation that could bypass a QoS/DPI platform and cause either performance degradation/congestion, or cause an ISPs costs to change significantly would be caught reasonably quickly. Many ISPs in NZ already have this capability (including many of the top 10), or have been evaluating it. If they don't have the DPI/QoS capability, they would still have netflow -- if for nothing other than billing -- which would allow them to reasonably quickly determine what the hell is going on in their network. I suspect you are correct in that none could tell you today because it's not a significant traffic flow and thereby just recorded in "other" (or they're just not interested), but if they saw their aggregate traffic pattern changing I'd imagine that people would begin asking questions very quickly. If squashing that v6 tunnel traffic down is going to allow them to control their contention better and allow more, shall we say, fair-use services, through, then that will happen pretty quickly. I think protocol/payload inspection is becoming more common, as people seem to be trying to derive the most revenue possible from their expenses to make a profit, and this is one way that really helps them understand their cost basis and customer models. In the past I've certainly used netflow/protocol statistics to offload customers that just were not profitable and allow us to make a business change to support profitable customers. Outside of NZ (and maybe Australia - although my experience here is looking similar), people maybe don't care anywhere near as much because their transit costs are significantly lower. NZ and certain products sold within NZ also have had restrictions on transport costs that also made DPI important. YMMV? Absolutely. aj.
On 11 Apr 2007, at 19:34, Steve Phillips wrote:
Scott Weeks wrote:
ip is a means to an end, [...] ip occurs as a way to send my messages from A to B. ding, ding, ding! From the many lists discussing these issues recently, we finally have a winner! Most folk don't care about v4, v6, v8 or v<insert stuff here>. They want to do something and
andy(a)nosignal.org wrote: they 'just want it to work'. 99.999% couldn't give less than a crap how that happens. Thank you for bringing this thread full circle back to where it started.
People want porn. Free porn site opens on IPv6 only
This is where your model falls down. Free porn is available on v4. -a
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 09:38 +0100, Andy Davidson wrote:
On 11 Apr 2007, at 19:34, Steve Phillips wrote:
Scott Weeks wrote:
ip is a means to an end, [...] ip occurs as a way to send my messages from A to B. ding, ding, ding! From the many lists discussing these issues recently, we finally have a winner! Most folk don't care about v4, v6, v8 or v<insert stuff here>. They want to do something and
andy(a)nosignal.org wrote: they 'just want it to work'. 99.999% couldn't give less than a crap how that happens. Thank you for bringing this thread full circle back to where it started.
People want porn. Free porn site opens on IPv6 only
This is where your model falls down. Free porn is available on v4.
I'm growing tired of this thread and I don't think it does much for credible debate. jamie
On 12-Apr-2007, at 05:09, Jamie Baddeley wrote:
People want porn. Free porn site opens on IPv6 only
This is where your model falls down. Free porn is available on v4.
I'm growing tired of this thread and I don't think it does much for credible debate.
I was actually quite enjoying it. I put on my raincoat, and everything. So, what happens to the experiment when what happens in practice is that the first few v6-capable porn enthusiasts download all the content and then share it using p2p protocols over IPv4? Joe
And 10G isn't all that much. I'm not a porn fan myself, but from other types of media, 10G isn't that much. Maybe if they put 1TB of porn and 1TB of free tv content from a major studio, then we'd have an experiment. Joe's point would still stand though - it would get shared on v4. Joe Abley wrote:
So, what happens to the experiment when what happens in practice is that the first few v6-capable porn enthusiasts download all the content and then share it using p2p protocols over IPv4?
I'm not a porn fan myself, but from other types of media, 10G isn't that much. Maybe if they put 1TB of porn and 1TB of free tv content from a major studio, then we'd have an experiment.
There is some content at http://www.ipv6porn.co.nz. (If you have IPv6) Thanks Me Myself
I do have an IPv6 connection, but can't get to this web site. There appears to be a lack of connectivity between the two of us. -----Original Message----- ... There is some content at http://www.ipv6porn.co.nz. (If you have IPv6) Thanks Me Myself _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 16:24 +1200, Philip D'Ath wrote:
I do have an IPv6 connection, but can't get to this web site. There appears to be a lack of connectivity between the two of us.
-----Original Message----- ... There is some content at http://www.ipv6porn.co.nz. (If you have IPv6)
Funnily enough I was discussing this thread in the office just yesterday and ended up at the same content. Fetching it over v6 is quite different to fetching it over v4, it seems, and the end user experience is definitely that this is more choppy. Given that I'm 9mS from the office, where my tunnel connects to an IPv6 router which I would *really* like to be well-connected over v6, especially to NZ[1] sites, I thought I'd look a bit harder. WTF! The route goes via _stockholm_ and *then* via _montreal_!!!!! Yep. I wouldn't normally use 5 exclamation marks, but I think this rates... To be honest I have to rate New Zealand's performance on IPv6 as abysmal-- compared to the rest of the world. As far as I can ascertain we have one (1) ISP in New Zealand who appears to be willing to offer IPv6 connectivity to (normal) customers, and they appear to be forced to do that through a tunnel to the US of A. I suspect the situation is just as crappy in Australia, which is why so far the only place in Australia we have managed a v6 tunnel to is Perth. ***THIS*** ***SUCKS*** IPv6 routes to New Zealand cannot possibly follow reasonable paths until there are (at the very least) tunnel brokers that can get upstream from ISPs who are close in a v4 sense. It is interesting to see IPv6 traceroutes from Europe, because they all seem to do sane things. IPv6 traceroutes from China or Japan probably also do, but as far as I can see New Zealand is very much in the v4th world in this. Cheers, Andrew McMillan. And just for anyone who cares, this is the traceroute from my laptop to Philip's site. Sure it's arbitrarily crappy because we're both tunnelling to the US, but there's a whole world of stupidity in the middle even _with_ that caveat. 1. 2404:130:1:f100::f102:1 0.0% 29 11.2 9.3 5.6 19.4 2.9 2. sl-bb1v6-sj-t-45.sprintv6.net 0.0% 28 174.1 172.8 169.1 180.1 2.0 3. sl-bb1v6-nyc-t-1001.sprintv6.net 0.0% 28 251.7 252.9 245.2 362.8 21.7 4. sl-bb1v6-sto-t-102.sprintv6.net 0.0% 28 344.5 347.8 341.6 419.9 14.4 5. 2001:7f8:d:fb::34 0.0% 28 347.2 347.6 341.8 388.6 8.5 6. 2001:440:1880:3000::15 0.0% 28 418.2 423.9 397.4 593.8 37.7 7. c2sth-ge-3-3-0.sunet.se 0.0% 28 423.2 441.2 406.5 531.0 25.6 8. stockholm2-pos-6-0-0.sunet.se 0.0% 28 424.9 421.3 399.5 551.7 28.1 c1sth-ae3.sunet.se 9. stockholm4-ge12-1-1.sunet.se 0.0% 28 423.5 420.7 398.4 508.4 25.2 stockholm2-POS1.sunet.se 10. se-ov.nordu.net 0.0% 28 379.3 382.7 376.5 435.0 10.9 11. dk-gw2.nordu.net 0.0% 28 376.2 381.4 374.9 400.0 5.9 12. dk-gw.nordu.net 0.0% 28 393.5 381.3 376.2 396.5 4.8 dk-gw.nordu.net 13. 2001:798:15:10aa::d 0.0% 28 382.6 390.0 377.3 528.0 31.1 14. so-6-2-0.rt1.fra.de.geant2.net 0.0% 28 382.3 380.4 376.6 390.0 3.3 15. so-6-0-0.rt1.pra.cz.geant2.net 0.0% 28 377.3 382.2 375.7 418.7 8.8 16. so-7-2-0.rt1.vie.at.geant2.net 0.0% 28 377.5 379.3 375.2 389.6 3.3 17. 2001:1900:5:2::5 0.0% 28 376.7 384.4 374.4 513.9 25.6 18. 2001:1900:5:1::1 3.6% 28 396.0 403.2 391.0 619.4 43.3 19. 2001:7f8:4::1935:1 0.0% 28 442.4 467.0 431.4 650.8 47.7 20. ??? 21. ??? 22. ??? 23. if-7-0.mcore4.njy-newark.ipv6.teleglobe.ne 0.0% 28 432.5 456.4 423.9 617.4 47.5 24. if-12-0.mcore3.njy-newark.ipv6.teleglobe.n 0.0% 28 432.1 450.9 421.2 797.4 69.8 25. if-5-0.core2.nto-newyork.ipv6.teleglobe.ne 0.0% 28 433.6 463.5 421.9 829.8 86.6 26. if-4-0-0.core2.nto-newyork.ipv6.teleglobe. 3.7% 28 462.6 453.2 422.2 798.1 71.2 27. if-5-0.mcore4.mtt-montreal.ipv6.teleglobe. 3.8% 27 448.1 457.6 427.5 766.4 64.8 28. gin-mtt-6bb1.ipv6.teleglobe.net 0.0% 27 448.1 456.8 427.4 732.5 56.8 29. ix-5-0-1.6bb1.mtt-montreal.ipv6.teleglobe. 0.0% 27 450.7 456.1 429.0 702.9 51.2 30. 2001:5c0:0:5::117 3.8% 27 454.6 454.6 431.0 666.3 44.9 [1] We'll have a v6 .nz DNS server on there fairly soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Andrew @ Catalyst .Net .NZ Ltd, PO Box 11-053, Manners St, Wellington WEB: http://catalyst.net.nz/ PHYS: Level 2, 150-154 Willis St DDI: +64(4)803-2201 MOB: +64(272)DEBIAN OFFICE: +64(4)499-2267 You've been leading a dog's life. Stay off the furniture. -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just spotted this. I am an advocated of IPv6, but www.v6.co.nz is not my site. The credit belongs to Craig Whitmore (correct me if I am wrong). -----Original Message----- ... And just for anyone who cares, this is the traceroute from my laptop to Philip's site. Sure it's arbitrarily crappy because we're both tunnelling to the US, but there's a whole world of stupidity in the middle even _with_ that caveat.
On Fri, 2007-04-13 at 16:24 +1200, Craig Whitmore wrote:
There is some content at http://www.ipv6porn.co.nz. (If you have IPv6)
Brilliant! :) -- Andrew Ruthven Wellington, New Zealand At home: andrew(a)etc.gen.nz | This space intentionally | left blank.
participants (12)
-
Alastair Johnson -
Andrew McMillan -
Andrew Ruthven -
Andy Davidson -
Craig Whitmore -
Dean Pemberton -
Jamie Baddeley -
Joe Abley -
Philip D'Ath -
Scott Weeks -
Steve Phillips -
Truman Boyes