Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. - NZNOG

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Richard Naylor

26 Dec 2003 26 Dec '03

10:02 a.m.

At 05:30 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Steve Withers wrote:

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On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 10:00, Richard Naylor wrote:

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Personally I agree with him. NZ has had the *best* deregulated environment for the past 12 years and has largely squandered that advantage.

It was never going to work - which was obvious from the outset. :-)

So deregulation failed to deliver what was promised for it.

It failed because people failed to understand it. They still wait for someone else to do it for them and complain about what Telecom do or don't do. Why not do it yourself. There were absolutely no barriers to doing just that, just laziness and ignorance. TUANZ just bleated on about number portability and interconnect and failed to see what else was on offer. They've finally woken up to broadband - about 6 years too late.

...

Is that really news to anyone? The same thing has happened almost everywhere there was a dominant player effectively controlling the market.

I would disagree Steve. The dominant player is also bogged down with entrenched thinking and a huge investment in equipment thats past its use by date. Hence the earlier debate about architecture et al. So you just compete by being massively better. Its not hard when cheap gig switches are under $300

...

There was - in real terms - no opportunity to be squandered. The cost/price curves never met for competitors - because Telecom was gifted an infrastructure that cost far more to build than what they paid for it.

The competitors tried playing on the same playing field. At a time when technology is rampantly changing, the trick is to make your own playing field using the new stuff. rich

Show replies by date

Don Gould - BVC

26 Dec 26 Dec

10:28 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:02:37 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

...

At 05:30 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Steve Withers wrote:

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TUANZ just bleated on about number portability and interconnect and failed to see what else was on offer. They've finally woken up to broadband - about 6 years too late.

Richard, what is TUANZ doing now that you see of value?

...

...
Is that really news to anyone? The same thing has happened almost everywhere there was a dominant player effectively controlling the market.

I would disagree Steve. The dominant player is also bogged down with entrenched thinking and a huge investment in equipment thats past its use by date. Hence the earlier debate about architecture et al. So you just compete by being massively better. Its not hard when cheap gig switches are under $300

Are there any rules now about putting a bit of cable up along the back fence? What can I do if I want to run around my block but one neighbour doesn't want to be connected? Do I have to be a "registered anything"... for example in AU you have to pay $10,000 to get a carrier licence to do anything with the internet unless it's provided free - even then I think there are still rules.

...

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There was - in real terms - no opportunity to be squandered. The cost/price curves never met for competitors - because Telecom was gifted an infrastructure that cost far more to build than what they paid for it.

The competitors tried playing on the same playing field. At a time when technology is rampantly changing, the trick is to make your own playing field using the new stuff.

IAWR - Be a leader rather than a follower! Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Richard Naylor

10:48 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 05:28 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1200, you wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:02:37 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

...
At 05:30 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Steve Withers wrote:

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TUANZ just bleated on about number portability and interconnect and failed to see what else was on offer. They've finally woken up to broadband - about 6 years too late.

Richard, what is TUANZ doing now that you see of value?

well they use the word "broadband" now, so soon it might be understood that a modem is dead useless and people might ask for more. They REALLY need to start pushing VoIP so we can get over this PSTN stuff.

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Are there any rules now about putting a bit of cable up along the back fence?

What can I do if I want to run around my block but one neighbour doesn't want to be connected?

well get 10 homes and you write to Frank March asking for a Network Operators Licence (sorry Frank). Then use Section 13 (in the old act) which basically says "fess up or come see the Judge". Sect 148 is also usefull, you can get buggers who muck up your network done for "interferring with a network" for $5k per day. I've used Sect 13 twice - once in power, once at CityLink.. Both times on a Govt agency - Defence :-) Both worked like a charm. Time to agreement measured in hours

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Do I have to be a "registered anything"... for example in AU you have to pay $10,000 to get a carrier licence to do anything with the internet unless it's provided free - even then I think there are still rules.

Nope - Frank doesn't charge. But try to buy him a lunch from time to time. Two folks that I know have achieved Operator Status this year. It is NOT hard. Except of course that I want personal status so I can get my cat-5 a bit further down the street and Frank won't do that. Maybe its time I bought you lunch Frank......

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IAWR - Be a leader rather than a follower!

see earlier posting and go buy cat-5....... rich PS since we're all having so much fun, the other "mainframe mentality" architecture in my view is the TV industry. A good example is NZ ON Air. Their 5 year plan mentions Internet ONCE - when it gives their webiste address........oh shame.....

Don Gould - BVC

11:23 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:48:06 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

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Richard, what is TUANZ doing now that you see of value? well they use the word "broadband" now, so soon it might be understood that a modem is dead useless and people might ask for more.

Ok I'll take the hint and just ignore them... Sounds a bit like the mob in AU that I wasted time contacting.

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They REALLY need to start pushing VoIP so we can get over this PSTN stuff.

What VoIP <--> PSTN gateways are around the place so you can jump back into the pstn?

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well get 10 homes and you write to Frank March asking for a Network Operators Licence (sorry Frank).

And I find Frank where...

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Then use Section 13 (in the old act) which basically says "fess up or come see the Judge".

Hummm.... sounds like I need to do some reading, are NZ acts on line? Linkie linkie? :)

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Sect 148 is also usefull, you can get buggers who muck up your network done for "interferring with a network" for $5k per day.

As above...

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I've used Sect 13 twice - once in power, once at CityLink.. Both times on a Govt agency - Defence :-) Both worked like a charm. Time to agreement measured in hours

More fun than losing your glasses in the wind while putting up dishes I bet! :)

...

Nope - Frank doesn't charge. But try to buy him a lunch from time to time. Two folks that I know have achieved Operator Status this year.

Kewl, that's useful to know.

...

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IAWR - Be a leader rather than a follower!

see earlier posting and go buy cat-5.......

That's a plan.

...

PS since we're all having so much fun, the other "mainframe mentality" architecture in my view is the TV industry. A good example is NZ ON Air. Their 5 year plan mentions Internet ONCE - when it gives their webiste address........oh shame.....

Oh don't even get me started! I loved the act in AU that says you're not allowed to rebroadcast across the net! - do we have anything like that here? What's the rules as far as pulling sat TV off a dish and pumping that around, do you need licences for that either? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Jonathan Dean

11:58 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 I am convinced the major impediment for a grassroot non-profit community network (i.e. Citylink et al) is not the lack of last-mile technology but rather it is the lack of an independent national and international data backbone. Jon. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/7S2le/+/JCBbkYgRAiz5AJ0bypdTEoGgNWiZRrLoWvtJIgUdPACeMiNc LCG/iHeyq2mSYu8yf6usWZE= =SElr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Richard Naylor

12:25 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 07:58 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote:

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

I am convinced the major impediment for a grassroot non-profit community network (i.e. Citylink et al) is not the lack of last-mile technology but rather it is the lack of an independent national and international data backbone.

An interesting view. I'll risk further over exposure and comment based on our experience. We learned from our telco friends that phone calls are 5% international 15% national 80% local We normally draw it as a pryamid. The Internet as traditionally used in NZ is also a pryamid 80% international - the .com mentality 15% national 5% local We find that when decent high speed networking is available (and certain industries are present) that our traffic is more like the phone model and teh Int links are less important. then your network truely becomes an Inter-net, when businesses start doing real business electronically and shifting real electronic products. How often do you send a 10.5GByte file overseas ? Or 800MByte files ? They fly between users of CityLink all day. (for newspaper editions) rich

Don Gould - BVC

12:48 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:25:41 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote <Snip of the interesting facts...>

...

We find that when decent high speed networking is available (and certain industries are present) that our traffic is more like the phone model and teh Int links are less important. then your network truely becomes an Inter-net, when businesses start doing real business electronically and shifting real electronic products. How often do you send a 10.5GByte file overseas ? Or 800MByte files ? They fly between users of CityLink all day. (for newspaper editions)

Do you think the same trend will apear in the home/domestic/residentual market thou? Sure for gaming you can't beat local servers but what local content is there than the home market wants that doesn't come in from overseas? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Jonathan Dean

12:58 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:25, you wrote:

...

At 07:58 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote:

...
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

I am convinced the major impediment for a grassroot non-profit community network (i.e. Citylink et al) is not the lack of last-mile technology but rather it is the lack of an independent national and international data backbone.

An interesting view. I'll risk further over exposure and comment based on our experience.

We learned from our telco friends that phone calls are

5% international 15% national 80% local

We normally draw it as a pryamid.

The Internet as traditionally used in NZ is also a pryamid

80% international - the .com mentality 15% national 5% local

We find that when decent high speed networking is available (and certain industries are present) that our traffic is more like the phone model and teh Int links are less important. then your network truely becomes an Inter-net, when businesses start doing real business electronically and shifting real electronic products. How often do you send a 10.5GByte file overseas ? Or 800MByte files ? They fly between users of CityLink all day. (for newspaper editions)

rich

I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important. A major factor why 80% of calls are local is that 80% of calls are free. Of course most people don't send 10.5GB files overseas - because on DSL they would be bankrupted. Do Citylink users have the ability to send 10.5GB offshore if they want too - without paying international tariffs? Ultimately, I just want all the schools in New Zealand to be able to actually communicate with each other using high speed networking. It seems to me that government will ensure that every school has access to high speed internet (DSL etc.) but none of them will ever be able to afford to use it. If we look at the US internet pyramid it is probably 80% national 15% local 5% international . -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/7Tu4e/+/JCBbkYgRArn5AJ9iTIUSIx1nLTXbnxecTeTx4/DNGgCfdUVn haUOyPLmkk4S5hZEHdj/Hyg= =aFXM -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Don Gould - BVC

1:30 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:58:43 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote

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I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important.

Ok, why?

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A major factor why 80% of calls are local is that 80% of calls are free.

I doubt that's correct. In AU I had national free time for 20 minutes after 8pm each day. Most of my calls were still local becuase most of the people I wanted to call were local. You also pay for every local call there and still most calls I made were local. Family and firends are normally local aren't they? Services I used all the time were also local - pizza :) mmmm :)

...

Of course most people don't send 10.5GB files overseas - because on DSL they would be bankrupted. Do Citylink users have the ability to send 10.5GB offshore if they want too - without paying international tariffs?

Can you get fixed pipe data here rather than paying by the mg like you can over seas?

...

Ultimately, I just want all the schools in New Zealand to be able to actually communicate with each other using high speed networking. It seems to me that government will ensure that every school has access to high speed internet (DSL etc.) but none of them will ever be able to afford to use it.

This is exactly why I suggested linking up home users jetstream accounts using wireless. The national data is free... While we're on that subject, how do I tell what Telecom consider national and what's international? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Barry Murphy

1:40 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:58:43 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote This is exactly why I suggested linking up home users jetstream accounts using wireless. The national data is free...

Jetstream national is not free, if it were I would be on jetstream. All my traffic is national based as I run through a vpn for my international. If telecom would just make a uncapped, high speed national connection, I would be really happy. Barry

Don Gould - BVC

1:52 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:40:44 +1300, Barry Murphy wrote

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Jetstream national is not free

Sorry. I meant to say JetStart (or what ever the 128k plan is called). If we linked every school in Christchurch with wireless then linked in homes that we using the 128k JetStart then you'd be awash with national bandwidth. Hence why I was asking if anyone knows what Telecom consider national data. Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Mark Foster

1:49 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Jetstream Starter domestic traffic isn't necessarily free either. Its cost depends on the ISP you use, as its routed through the ISPs network. Many ISPs filter all traffic in one hit and impose you with a limit of 10-15GB total (national and international not differentiated) per month. Only a few ISPs differentiate between national and international, at least in my personal experience. Mark. On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:40:44 +1300, Barry Murphy wrote

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Jetstream national is not free

Sorry. I meant to say JetStart (or what ever the 128k plan is called).

Don Gould - BVC

2:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

I'm only familur with the terms of two ISPs - Xtra and iHug (now iiBorg) With Xtra my national traffic isn't counted at all but I only get 5gb of international - thou like many homes I'd be lucky to use 2gb of that. (My parents for example used less than 200mb each month for the last 3 months - I use a bit more because I like to follow some AU forums and irc channels but nothing like 5gb). My friends on iHug get 10gb of international traffic and 10* for national - how you would use 100gb on a 128k link is a bit beyond me unless you're running file sharing 24/7. I'd be more than happy to lend the balance of my account to my local school to use and let them have 100% of the national link when I'm not using it. I'm still doing some learning about iptables and htb but this must be possible - surely? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Barry Murphy

2:30 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

From: "Don Gould - BVC"

...

I'm still doing some learning about iptables and htb but this must be

possible

...

- surely?

Orcon was very helpfull (thanks craig) for supplying me with a bgp output of their national routes. So I simply allow traffic from those routes and deny or rate limit the rest, works really well. AFAIK a few hosting providers do something simular to count the international traffic customers use with their hosted websites. Barry

...

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per

month!

...

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Simon Lyall

2:08 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:40:44 +1300, Barry Murphy wrote

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Jetstream national is not free

Sorry. I meant to say JetStart (or what ever the 128k plan is called).

If we linked every school in Christchurch with wireless then linked in homes that we using the 128k JetStart then you'd be awash with national bandwidth.

This might be a little hard to route, Not impossible but a little bit of work. Especially since Telecom have reverse path filtering turned on for Jetstart now (since the new RANS went in).

...

Hence why I was asking if anyone knows what Telecom consider national data.

They probably either count traffic that goes via their National links as National or is originated from AS's they list as National. -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz

Don Gould - BVC

2:31 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Hello Simon... Seems this is the list that brings all sort out of the wood work :) On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 22:08:27 +1300 (NZDT), Simon Lyall wrote

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This might be a little hard to route, Not impossible but a little bit of work.

Kewl!

...

Especially since Telecom have reverse path filtering turned on for Jetstart now (since the new RANS went in).

Ok... sorry you'll have to excuse my ignorance... what is 'reverse path filtering' and how does it impact on the idea? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Robert McDonald

27 Dec 27 Dec

11:50 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:52, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:40:44 +1300, Barry Murphy wrote

...
Jetstream national is not free

Sorry. I meant to say JetStart (or what ever the 128k plan is called).

If we linked every school in Christchurch with wireless then linked in homes that we using the 128k JetStart then you'd be awash with national bandwidth. You'd also be awash with law suits from telecom. Thats a breach of their terms and conditions. There was some serious talk about them saying you may only use the connection on one PC (no shareing with your lan at home) That was dismissed, but im sure you cant give it away to your school legaly.

--Rob

...

Hence why I was asking if anyone knows what Telecom consider national data.

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Don Gould - BVC

1:35 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

<WARNING>I got out an extra soap box to respond to Roberts comments.</WARNING> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:50:26 +1300, Robert McDonald wrote

...

You'd also be awash with law suits from telecom. Thats a breach of their terms and conditions. There was some serious talk about them saying you may only use the connection on one PC (no shareing with your lan at home) That was dismissed, but im sure you cant give it away to your school legaly.

!!! FUD FACTOR 101 !!! --- Bring on the FUD Robert! Show me the exact term and condition that you might be refering to and I'll show you an ISP that won't do business in NZ for very long once we start telling students that their New Zealand telephone company wants to sue people for giving away a bit of bandwidth (that they have paid for and aren't using) to support the education of our children in New Zealand schools!!! If Telecom were smart (and I do accept that they aren't always) they would embrace the idea of using wireless to share ADSL connections back in to local schools. How many people would switch from dialup to ADSL just so they could also support their local school? Telecom could end up winning more local business than they would ever lose by the school not needing to purchase as much capacity - remembering that the school would still need some dedicated capacity anyway. Let's get a reaility check for a few seconds... Schools in NZ simply can't aford to buy up the amount of bandwidth that a consolidated pool of JetStart connections could deliver... or could they? In Perth the WA education department went out to tender for the supply of a 10mbit mesh network to be delivered to 400 schools on fibre. They paid about the same price for each 10mbit connection as the (then) current price for a 384k[1] ISDN link - Telstra (who won the deal) couldn't aford to allow its competition to win that sort of business away from them. WA schools are open to idea of sharing their new resource back into the community[2] - seen in NZ, that would mean using wireless in the other direction - you think Telecom would be more hurt then? I'm suggesting a way that the community can support their local schools and Telecom benefits... you really think they'll sue people over that? Cheers DiG Ps: Robert, I'm not out to shoot the messenger :) [1] The price for 384k was under $1,000AUD and closer to $700AUD per month. ISPs were paying ~$1300 for a 1mbit connection to the internet at the time - remember the schools were getting 10 mbits. [2] This acording to the guy who planned and managed the project. They also have an extensive web site about the project online and what they intended doing with the network. -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Tristram Cheer

1:38 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know Tristram -----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 9:35 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! <WARNING>I got out an extra soap box to respond to Roberts comments.</WARNING> On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:50:26 +1300, Robert McDonald wrote

...

You'd also be awash with law suits from telecom. Thats a breach of their terms and conditions. There was some serious talk about them saying you may only use the connection on one PC (no shareing with your lan at home) That was dismissed, but im sure you cant give it away to your school legaly.

Mark Foster

1:50 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

For reference try these URLS: http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,100633-200550,00.html "If you are acquiring our Jetstream service for private, residential purposes".... Where the service is being obtained for a purpose that doesnt fit into the above the t&c for business customers comes into affect- and jetstream starter is a residential product, can only be given to residential customers. As much as Rob's comment looks like FUD there's an element of truth. Schools are businesses and are charged business rates. Telecom also cut them various deals to get online as economically as possible. Mark. (Comments are mine and mine alone and do not represent my employer or any companies associated with said employer.) PS: I believe we're pushing the operational-nature of this conversation out, which would put us outside of NZNOG's ontopic realm... apologies if i've just made the situ worse. On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Tristram Cheer wrote:

...

Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know

Tristram

-----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 9:35 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

<WARNING>I got out an extra soap box to respond to Roberts comments.</WARNING>

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 19:50:26 +1300, Robert McDonald wrote

...
You'd also be awash with law suits from telecom. Thats a breach of their terms and conditions. There was some serious talk about them saying you may only use the connection on one PC (no shareing with your lan at home) That was dismissed, but im sure you cant give it away to your school legaly.

!!! FUD FACTOR 101 !!! --- Bring on the FUD Robert!

Show me the exact term and condition that you might be refering to and I'll show you an ISP that won't do business in NZ for very long once we start telling students that their New Zealand telephone company wants to sue people for giving away a bit of bandwidth (that they have paid for and aren't using) to support the education of our children in New Zealand schools!!!

If Telecom were smart (and I do accept that they aren't always) they would embrace the idea of using wireless to share ADSL connections back in to local schools.

How many people would switch from dialup to ADSL just so they could also support their local school?

Telecom could end up winning more local business than they would ever lose by the school not needing to purchase as much capacity - remembering that the school would still need some dedicated capacity anyway.

Let's get a reaility check for a few seconds...

Schools in NZ simply can't aford to buy up the amount of bandwidth that a consolidated pool of JetStart connections could deliver... or could they?

In Perth the WA education department went out to tender for the supply of a 10mbit mesh network to be delivered to 400 schools on fibre. They paid about the same price for each 10mbit connection as the (then) current price for a 384k[1] ISDN link - Telstra (who won the deal) couldn't aford to allow its competition to win that sort of business away from them.

WA schools are open to idea of sharing their new resource back into the community[2] - seen in NZ, that would mean using wireless in the other direction - you think Telecom would be more hurt then?

I'm suggesting a way that the community can support their local schools and Telecom benefits... you really think they'll sue people over that?

Cheers DiG

Ps: Robert, I'm not out to shoot the messenger :)

[1] The price for 384k was under $1,000AUD and closer to $700AUD per month.

ISPs were paying ~$1300 for a 1mbit connection to the internet at the time -

remember the schools were getting 10 mbits.

[2] This acording to the guy who planned and managed the project. They also

have an extensive web site about the project online and what they intended doing with the network.

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Steve Withers

2:05 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 21:50, Mark Foster wrote: .....

...

As much as Rob's comment looks like FUD there's an element of truth. Schools are businesses and are charged business rates. Telecom also cut them various deals to get online as economically as possible.

Mark.

I've never accepted that schools are businesses. They are schools. They make no profit. They deliver services compulsorily delivered - and received - by law. The police aren't a business either. Nor is the fire service. McDonalds is a business. Fonterra is a business. Schools are not a business. Phone service to them should not be charged by the minute...and network access for educational purposes should be part of the national educational infrastructure - like classrooms and playgrounds and libraries. ISPs should deal with them accordingly. I'd love see some of the more destructive memes of the past 15 years expunged from society.....so we can one again give these things the priority - and resources - they deserve. -- Steve Withers

Michael Hallager

2:23 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

Schools are not a business. Phone service to them should not be charged by the minute...and network access for educational purposes should be part of the national educational infrastructure - like classrooms and playgrounds and libraries.

ISPs should deal with them accordingly.

This is welfare state mentality stuff - which is why a lot of schools don't have decent connectivity. Like the teachers want a pay rise every year for their hard work, I expect to be paid for my service delivery as well. :-) My experience with schools is that they are some of the hardest clients to please. Their internal processes and politics ensure that selling to them is time consuming pain in the butt stuff and yet they still can't afford and they want free trials** etc, EVEN when you are offering to slash their internet costs (Via wireless) and improve their service quality, it still isn't good enough for a quick and easy deal. I have six schools in my immediate area. I think I will let them keep their ADSL Jetstream. ** Setting up a "FREE trial" is as expensive as a full install, as there really is no difference. COSTS about $300, even allowing for anything you can recover. For an account making maybe $50-$70 per month maximum profit after expenses, hardly a viable risk expense compared to other business opportunities.

...

I'd love see some of the more destructive memes of the past 15 years expunged from society.....so we can one again give these things the priority - and resources - they deserve.

-- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work. URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking equipment. Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624

Steve Withers

2:36 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 22:23, Michael Hallager wrote:

...

...
Schools are not a business. Phone service to them should not be charged by the minute...and network access for educational purposes should be part of the national educational infrastructure - like classrooms and playgrounds and libraries.

ISPs should deal with them accordingly.

This is welfare state mentality stuff - which is why a lot of schools don't have decent connectivity. Like the teachers want a pay rise every year for their hard work, I expect to be paid for my service delivery as well. :-)

Without getting into an extended political discussion - in appropriate for this list - I will simply say: I do not see provision of an adequate educational infrastructure as 'welfare". It's an investment in the people of New Zealand that would bring rich returns. I also think that if the telecoms providers and ISPs of NZ can't build and operate a network for schools / police / fire service / whatever that meets their requirements, then the government itself should build such a network. I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind. We have seen so far in NZ that private network providers - mainly Telecom, but they aren't alone - are likely more expensive in the medium and long term - at the end of the day - than a publicly-funded, cost-recovery network would be. As Richard naylor has said: Why not just do it yourself? Is that a question to individuals only? Or could the people of New Zealand hear that quesiton and respond? I agree that deregulation presented opportunity.....but where is the competition we were supposed to see? It isn't there....and Telecom NZ remains the most profitable telco in the OECD - pound for inch....and mainly becasue they were gifted - by Richard Prebble - a publicly funded and built infrastructure that no one else today can afford to match. I'll be quiet now. -- Steve Withers

Tony Wicks

2:49 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind.

How on earth would you know what it cost's to build a national network ? Let alone a "kick ass" one. Don't confuse putting up a few wireless nodes or stringing up some fibres on power poles with building a "national network". To do that you need billion dollar investments in equipment and info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

Tristram Cheer

2:56 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

You don't. You setup wifi mesh's in major cities and use existing infrastructure to link them together. You don't need much to link giving current limits of 54mb Regards -----Original Message----- From: Tony Wicks [mailto:nzog(a)road.gen.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:49 p.m. To: Steve Withers Cc: NZ NOG Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind.

Michael Hallager

3:12 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

I totally agree. Thanks Tony.

...

...
I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind.

How on earth would you know what it cost's to build a national network ? Let alone a "kick ass" one. Don't confuse putting up a few wireless nodes or stringing up some fibres on power poles with building a "national network". To do that you need billion dollar investments in equipment and info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Jonathan Dean

3:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:12, Michael Hallager wrote:

...

I totally agree. Thanks Tony.

...
...
I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind.

How on earth would you know what it cost's to build a national network ? Let alone a "kick ass" one. Don't confuse putting up a few wireless nodes or stringing up some fibres on power poles with building a "national network". To do that you need billion dollar investments in equipment and info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

I thought this was what the Universities were planning on doing with Internet2 - - that is leasing some pre-existing national fibre - no doubt from Telecom or Clear? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/7q2Fe/+/JCBbkYgRAtMCAJ96GiDv3y0V2aR92TuPVXTJUsGRmQCfa1Z3 OLB07cA8Bcnx6hNj5C09kS0= =Y1Qy -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Simon Lyall

4:17 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Jonathan Dean wrote:

...

I thought this was what the Universities were planning on doing with Internet2 - that is leasing some pre-existing national fibre - no doubt from Telecom or Clear?

I've haven't seen many updates on this, although there is going to be something in the area by Roger De Salis at NZNOG04 , have a look at his www.area.net.nz site which appears to be the backbone in question. Personally I've always found it a shame that the Universities (apart from vuw, I think) and Government are the main large sites that DON'T peer across APE or WIX. I expect that in 2-5 years time the rest of the country will wake up to the fact that everybody in "rich" countries overseas and 5% of NZ (Central cite Auckland , Wellington and Wired Country type areas) has multi-megabyte Internet with cheap VOIP as an option which they are still paying $100 per month ( $40 pone + $30 ADSL + $30 ISP) for 128 or 256k and demand the govt do something. At which point the Govt will do a 12 month study and then allocate $500 million to Telecom to deliver some [buzzword] DSL product to another 5% of the population the Govt likes that week. or perhaps somewhere like Invercargill will wire up every street to 100Mb/s and every techie in the country will move there :) -- Simon J. Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT. "For a brief shining moment one could dream of a world of human beings working together and exchanging ideas. But for the most part, the Internet has been reduced to an alternate way to watch CNN. " - Sean Levin

Caveman

4:20 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

or perhaps somewhere like Invercargill will wire up every street to 100Mb/s and every techie in the country will move there :)

LOL.. I just love that Caveman

Richard Naylor

28 Dec 28 Dec

2:39 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

At 10:20 p.m. 28/12/2003 +1100, Caveman wrote:

...

...
or perhaps somewhere like Invercargill will wire up every street to 100Mb/s and every techie in the country will move there :)

LOL.. I just love that

time to eat words. Invercargill has already started running fiber and linking buildings. I did a design on the Southland Internet Exchange in may/june from memory. We just cloned the design for the ones we announced later in the year. rich

Steve Withers

27 Dec 27 Dec

3:24 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 23:12, Michael Hallager wrote:

...

I totally agree. Thanks Tony.

...
...
I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural aims and goals I have in mind.

How on earth would you know what it cost's to build a national network ? Let alone a "kick ass" one. Don't confuse putting up a few wireless nodes or stringing up some fibres on power poles with building a "national network". To do that you need billion dollar investments in equipment and info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

What's the annual spend by all government ministries and agencies on network services? Let's start with that number. -- Steve Withers

Matthew Poole

28 Dec 28 Dec

midnight

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 23:12, Michael Hallager wrote: *SNIP* What's the annual spend by all government ministries and agencies on network services?

Let's start with that number.

I don't know the number, but it will be a LOT! My employer (who shall remain nameless) has IT services support contracts with a few government departments, including one dealing with executive services for parliament. Needless to say, the value of the contract is quite substantial, as are the expected levels of service. Government is not shy about spending money, lots of money, to get the job done. Not necessarily in the most efficient manner (they'd ditch Telecon as their preferred provider if they gave a damn about the state of NZ's Internet economy), but the job gets done. -- Matthew Poole Auckland, NZ http://www.p00le.net "Three pills a day keeps the voices at bay" Matthew Poole

Steve Withers

27 Dec 27 Dec

3:26 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting

...
approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

Had the Government bought back TranzRail, a right-of-way for networks services would not be an issue. They would own one that touches every community of any size in NZ.

David Zanetti

4:29 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 28 Dec 2003, Steve Withers wrote:

...

...
You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting

...
approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

Had the Government bought back TranzRail, a right-of-way for networks services would not be an issue.

Didn't the deal with Toll (which still went thru last I recall) include buying back the track (and therefore I presume the land corridors) for $1? - -- David Zanetti | (__) #include | ( oo Mooooooo http://hairy.geek.nz/ | /(_O ./ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.75-6 iD8DBQE/7r6GT21+qRy4P+QRAtEXAKCxIa9wUDh+MMgSF9+Q7uXnVgIn4wCfVGg0 iup/O5TiHGmT6CHzeoG2Sgg= =kJbr -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Richard Naylor

28 Dec 28 Dec

3 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

At 10:49 p.m. 28/12/2003 +1300, Tony Wicks wrote:

...

info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

$40million - it used to be $30m but time has made it a little more expensive. Route and technolgy don't influence much, they all work out the same. CHeck what TCL paid for their festoon, its about the same. but don't despair. 2 years ago I went and talked with one of our customers, a financial place, with a BIG national network and said "for $1Mill install and $1mill per year opex, I'll give you a fiber to AKL" - they threw me out. I also needed 19 of their friends but I knew who they were/are. Its NOT hard, I just haven't had time. So a year ago I went back and said "Why ?" And they said "coz we have built all our networks on the assumption you couldn't do it, and no one else will sell it to us." The market is still there and the two major telcos are just holding it back. (Joe can confirm that renting a transcontinental fiber in the US is not unusual) So we talked some more (the $1M is a little steep for them) and I haven't got anywhere yet. But Roger has and I believe he'll give them what they want. I believe we'll see large fiber count cables providing inter-city links within the next 10 years. But you have to think completely differently BIG fiber counts NO regenerators (there are other ways) etc rich

Tony Wicks

3:08 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but once you have your Auckland to Wellington fiber, you will then need a second one to back it up for the times that someone dig's it up while putting in a new drain. And then getting across the cook straight etc etc.

...

info-structure. You go try and price up digging a trench (and getting approval for it!) from Auckland to Wellington, then come back and tell us how cheap you think your "kick ass" network will be.

Joe Abley

3:28 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On 28 Dec 2003, at 17:08, Tony Wicks wrote:

...

I hate to be a stick in the mud, but once you have your Auckland to Wellington fiber, you will then need a second one to back it up for the times that someone dig's it up while putting in a new drain. And then getting across the cook straight etc etc.

A lot of businesses in the US built out their infrastructure on the premise that they could swap fibres on one run for fibres on another. MFN for example acquired almost all its long-haul fibre by swapping inter-city fibre miles for metro fibre miles. As Richard mentioned, it's commonplace in North America and Europe to do these kinds of deals. I sat in an office in the UK earlier this year while someone built a dark fibre path between London and Hungary using only his telephone, swapping access here for favours over there. This only works if there's a rich interconnected mesh of fibre owners who are ready to do deals, however. If there's only two fibre owners, and they won't do deals, then it's not as easy. Incidentally, back in the day, CLEAR didn't own fibre under the cook straight. That didn't stop them building out their network between the two islands, though: they just used someone else's glass. Joe

Richard Naylor

3:39 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

At 05:28 p.m. 28/12/2003 -0500, Joe Abley wrote:

...

Incidentally, back in the day, CLEAR didn't own fibre under the cook straight. That didn't stop them building out their network between the two islands, though: they just used someone else's glass.

neither did Telecom have glass. They both used Transpower. You want to see just how they protect those cables - boats, choppers, Acts of Parl, etc. The infrastructure is more fragile than you think.

Robert McDonald

27 Dec 27 Dec

2:46 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:05, Steve Withers wrote:

...

I've never accepted that schools are businesses.

They are schools. They make no profit. They deliver services compulsorily delivered - and received - by law.

Ahh yes. Im 100% with you there steve, Schools should NOT be classed as a Business, Afterall they are for public good arn't they? not another place to be milked by the likes of telecom. (granted they do have their tolls for school thing and all that) IMO, they should give bb practicly free to schools. But hey, you can see which way my political views swing now. Unfortunatly this is not the case. I know several early childhood teachers who can hardly afford to keep their phone line at work, let alone a 20c per meg internet connection. There certainly is no discounts generaly speaking from telecom. You might get one out of a smaller (or friendlier) ISP if your lucky. This is getting much OT tho, Cheers Rob

Michael Hallager

3:26 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

The point is THEY CAN get big discounts. I have never asked anybody (Business, school, private) for 20 cents per meg or anywhere near that EVER. I just can't stand schools attitude of wanting everything given to them, almost as if you have to pay them to take the service. Dealing with SME businesses is far more worthwhile and rewarding then dealing with schools. ************************************************************************************** I will publically make a standing offer to any school that I can reach within the Henderson north area, where ASDL is the only option: I will deliver them a connection that exceeds OECD "broadband" speeds for less then 5 cents per Mb, provided they pay for their end wireless equipment and write me a cheque for the first months access without giving me any nonsense. easy peasy.... *************************************************************************************** I get the strong impression that many of the posts here are so pie-in-the-sky idealistic dreams from non internet industry people, that they are a red herring. With all due respect, if [you know who you are] can deliver a 10mbps connection to our neighbourhood for 10 bucks per month of even 20 bucks per month, per house, I suggest that you go ahead and do it. Getting broadband into schools requires realistic and achievable methodlogy and importantly ACTION, not WORDS. Above I have put my money where my mouth is. I await a reply from the (claimed) screaming hoards wanting cheap bandwidth....

...

...
I've never accepted that schools are businesses.

They are schools. They make no profit. They deliver services compulsorily delivered - and received - by law.

Ahh yes. Im 100% with you there steve, Schools should NOT be classed as a Business, Afterall they are for public good arn't they? not another place to be milked by the likes of telecom. (granted they do have their tolls for school thing and all that)

IMO, they should give bb practicly free to schools. But hey, you can see which way my political views swing now.

Unfortunatly this is not the case. I know several early childhood teachers who can hardly afford to keep their phone line at work, let alone a 20c per meg internet connection. There certainly is no discounts generaly speaking from telecom. You might get one out of a smaller (or friendlier) ISP if your lucky.

This is getting much OT tho,

Cheers Rob _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Don Gould - BVC

3:44 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Ideas come from discussion. You have raised some very good points below. I choose to address the most important of theses... On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:26:40 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...

I get the strong impression that many of the posts here are so pie- in-the-sky idealistic dreams from non internet industry people, that they are a red herring. With all due respect, if [you know who you are] can deliver a 10mbps connection to our neighbourhood for 10 bucks per month of even 20 bucks per month, per house, I suggest that you go ahead and do it. Getting broadband into schools requires realistic and achievable methodlogy and importantly ACTION, not WORDS. Above I have put my money where my mouth is.

...

I await a reply from the (claimed) screaming hoards wanting cheap bandwidth....

It would seem to me that most people in New Zealand aren't crying out for anything faster than a 56k modem based on what you guys have had to say on this and other lists I've been following for the past few weeks. People seem very content with Microsoft products and using Telecom for their telecommunication requirments. Would you agree? Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Michael Hallager

3:52 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

That is so right. Apart from us very-minority nerdy type, your average Joe Bloggs dosn't give a toss about broadband. Comparing us with Asian countries is a redhearing as well - your average New Zealander dosn't live in an apartment in a crowded city and replace their mobile phone every month just to have the "latest model".

...

It would seem to me that most people in New Zealand aren't crying out for anything faster than a 56k modem based on what you guys have had to say on this and other lists I've been following for the past few weeks.

People seem very content with Microsoft products and using Telecom for their telecommunication requirments.

Would you agree?

Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Caveman

3:50 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:52 pm, Michael Hallager wrote:

...

That is so right. Apart from us very-minority nerdy type, your average Joe Bloggs dosn't give a toss about broadband. Comparing us with Asian countries is a redhearing as well - your average New Zealander dosn't live in an apartment in a crowded city and replace their mobile phone every month just to have the "latest model".

Thats very interesting... I live in Australia and here it's anything but.. Boardband take up has been very powerful here and I think the ideas DiG is tossing around have alot of future. Well they do here. I think comunity BB projects are something we NEED too see more of for. Caveman

Michael Hallager

4:01 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven. Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network". (Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

...

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 09:52 pm, Michael Hallager wrote:

...
That is so right. Apart from us very-minority nerdy type, your average Joe Bloggs dosn't give a toss about broadband. Comparing us with Asian countries is a redhearing as well - your average New Zealander dosn't live in an apartment in a crowded city and replace their mobile phone every month just to have the "latest model".

Thats very interesting... I live in Australia and here it's anything but.. Boardband take up has been very powerful here and I think the ideas DiG is tossing around have alot of future. Well they do here. I think comunity BB projects are something we NEED too see more of for.

Caveman

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Don Gould - BVC

4:11 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:42 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...

I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven.

100% agree with that.

...

Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections in AU for ~$1k now.

...

(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections? It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago that communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today. Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Barry Murphy

4:12 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:42 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...
I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven.

100% agree with that.

...
Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections in AU for ~$1k now.

...
(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections?

It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago

Not too long ago I got quoted +-$2k per month for a 10meg fiber link, this included 10meg national connectivity and no data charges. Seems a bit expensive for a 2 meg connection :) Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Gould - BVC" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! that

...

communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today.

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Michael Hallager

4:18 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Yeah. that would be right @ $2k for 10Mbps national. You seem to have confused national vs. international bandwidth pricing.

...

Not too long ago I got quoted +-$2k per month for a 10meg fiber link, this included 10meg national connectivity and no data charges.

Seems a bit expensive for a 2 meg connection :)

Barry

----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Gould - BVC" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:42 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...
I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven.

100% agree with that.

...
Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections in

AU

...
for ~$1k now.

...
(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections?

It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago

that

...
communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today.

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per

month!

...
Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Barry Murphy

4:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

Yeah. that would be right @ $2k for 10Mbps national. You seem to have confused national vs. international bandwidth pricing.

...
Not too long ago I got quoted +-$2k per month for a 10meg fiber link,

...

...
included 10meg national connectivity and no data charges.

Seems a bit expensive for a 2 meg connection :)

Barry

----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Gould - BVC" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:42 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...
I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven.

100% agree with that.

...
Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections in

AU

...
for ~$1k now.

...
(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections?

It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago

that

...
communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today.

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10

Includes the fiber, ovcourse there is the $4k install fee :/ Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hallager" To: "Barry Murphy" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! this per

...

...
month!

...
Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work.

URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking equipment.

Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624

Michael Hallager

4:31 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Assuming that you are talking about ethernet over fibre, $4k seems rather high. Did they have to dig the road or something? If it is ATM, $4k install cost would be right, but then again, it would be a lot more then $2k per month delivered.

...

Includes the fiber, ovcourse there is the $4k install fee :/

Barry

----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Hallager" To: "Barry Murphy" Cc: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:18 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...
Yeah. that would be right @ $2k for 10Mbps national. You seem to have

confused

...
national vs. international bandwidth pricing.

...
Not too long ago I got quoted +-$2k per month for a 10meg fiber link,

this

...
...
included 10meg national connectivity and no data charges.

Seems a bit expensive for a 2 meg connection :)

Barry

----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Gould - BVC" To: Sent: Monday, December 29, 2003 12:11 AM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 00:01:42 +1300, Michael Hallager wrote

...
I think that community broadband will have more credibility when one is actually up and running and proven.

100% agree with that.

...
Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections

in

...
...
AU

...
for ~$1k now.

...
(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections?

It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago

that

...
communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today.

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10

per

...
...
month!

...
Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work.

URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking

equipment.

...
Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624

James Spooner

4:47 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Michael Hallager wrote:

...

Assuming that you are talking about ethernet over fibre, $4k seems rather high. Did they have to dig the road or something? If it is ATM, $4k install cost would be right, but then again, it would be a lot more then $2k per month delivered.

I'm going to make an assumption and suggest that the only reason why this thread hasn't been administratively terminated is that Donald is taking some leave over Christmas. I'm not going to quote the AUP, we all know this is OT, if there needs to be a forum to discuss in detail perhaps one should be created. I along with hundreds of others subscribe to this list to keep on top of relevant and pertinent network operations information. Having to wade through a veritable truckload of off-topic nonsense reduces the lists utility to the majority of it's subscribers. Regards James Spooner -- James Spooner (BCMS) WAND Group - The University of Waikato NZ WAND Hardware Lab - G.1.32 Email: jbs3(a)cs.waikato.ac.nz Ph: +64 7 8384466x6651 Fax: +64 7 858 5095 Mob: +64 21 447638 WWW: http://voodoo.cs.waikato.ac.nz/~jbs3

Michael Hallager

4:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

...
Until then, I really don't need to hear any more "We are going to get a 2Mbps circuit at a cost of $5,500 per month for our no-profit wireless network".

Wow! Is data that expensive here??!?!? You can get 1mbit connections in AU for ~$1k now.

International bandwidth is as low as $1,200 per Mbps, in "wholesale" quantities from Tier 1 or 2 providers, which is usually 5-10 Mbps minimum. Otherwise you pay $1,700 ~ $2,000 per Mbps for small quantity wholesale (And oversubscribed) from a tier 3 provider. Either way, delivery charges are on top, which at only 2mbps will be around $1,320 per month on frame relay.

...

...
(Heard this twice now from 2 totally seperate parties).

And did they get their connections?

Um. No.

...

It strikes me that some people have forgoten that it wasn't so longago that communities build dialup ISPs to be what they have become today.

Them were the days... :-) No more....

...

Cheers DiG

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Joe Abley

7:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On 28 Dec 2003, at 05:52, Michael Hallager wrote:

...

That is so right. Apart from us very-minority nerdy type, your average Joe Bloggs dosn't give a toss about broadband.

Another Canadian anecdote for your amusement. My mother-in-law used to use a modem to read her mail, but she runs a bed and breakfast, and she was missing too many bookings because her phone was tied up. She already had cable tv (everybody here already has cable tv, if it's available, in the same way that they have access to the municipal sewer, if it's available). A cable modem and cable internet service cost about $40/month with no installation when she first got it about five years ago; a second phone line and a dial internet package would cost nearer $60/month with an installation fee for the phone line. The modem gave her something approaching 56k; the cable modem gives her something approaching 2M. She still mainly only uses her computer to check mail (and play solitaire :-) but she's clear on the fact that the cable modem is better than a modem. I very much doubt that she'd ever go back, even if it's just because the cable modem is always on. I still think getting affordable and reliable services offered over the legacy copper plant is an important step in creating a market for new and better broadband access (and based on performance so far, I don't see how or why cheap and reliable broadband services would appear over telecom copper without some low (iso) level of competition). Joe

Steve Withers

28 Dec 28 Dec

12:32 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Mon, 2003-12-29 at 03:16, Joe Abley wrote:

...

On 28 Dec 2003, at 05:52, Michael Hallager wrote:

...
That is so right. Apart from us very-minority nerdy type, your average Joe Bloggs dosn't give a toss about broadband.

Another Canadian anecdote for your amusement.

My mother-in-law used to use a modem to read her mail, but she runs a bed and breakfast, and she was missing too many bookings because her phone was tied up. She already had cable tv (everybody here already has cable tv, if it's available, in the same way that they have access to the municipal sewer, if it's available).

A cable modem and cable internet service cost about $40/month with no installation when she first got it about five years ago; a second phone line and a dial internet package would cost nearer $60/month with an installation fee for the phone line. The modem gave her something approaching 56k; the cable modem gives her something approaching 2M.

My mother is in Sarnia, Ontario, and she has pretty much the same service through Cogeco cable. She's retired and on a low, fixed income....but there is no way she is going to give up her cable modem.

...

She still mainly only uses her computer to check mail (and play solitaire :-) but she's clear on the fact that the cable modem is better than a modem. I very much doubt that she'd ever go back, even if it's just because the cable modem is always on.

Agreed.

...

I still think getting affordable and reliable services offered over the legacy copper plant is an important step in creating a market for new and better broadband access (and based on performance so far, I don't see how or why cheap and reliable broadband services would appear over telecom copper without some low (iso) level of competition).

My view, too..... ...and how is that going to happen? The regulatory "imposition" of more competition on Telecom through unbundling the local loop is as much of an imposition on that private company as any directly regulated pricing would be - just using a different method. For the "private property" folks, any regulatory change to the status quo will be a violation of Telecom's property rights. The only ideologically 'safe' options (from a property perspective) are a broadly-based co-op or directly tax-payer funded (do it yourself, NZ) network.

Joe Abley

12:54 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On 28 Dec 2003, at 14:32, Steve Withers wrote:

...

...
I still think getting affordable and reliable services offered over the legacy copper plant is an important step in creating a market for new and better broadband access (and based on performance so far, I don't see how or why cheap and reliable broadband services would appear over telecom copper without some low (iso) level of competition).

My view, too.....

...and how is that going to happen?

The regulatory "imposition" of more competition on Telecom through unbundling the local loop is as much of an imposition on that private company as any directly regulated pricing would be - just using a different method. For the "private property" folks, any regulatory change to the status quo will be a violation of Telecom's property rights.

... property rights that the government is presumably in the privileged position to amend as necessary.

...

The only ideologically 'safe' options (from a property perspective) are a broadly-based co-op or directly tax-payer funded (do it yourself, NZ) network.

True. However, rolling out new telephone poles and copper in order to deliver ADSL is absurd, even if the relevant city councils could make it affordable (or permissible) to do it in the first place. The ADSL stepping stone to a market of more-informed consumers who can see a reason to spend money on something like fibre-to-the-home only makes sense in the context of re-use of existing infrastructure. I am certainly not advocating that everybody should continue sitting on their hands and bleating about Telecom as an alternative to building new an innovative infrastructure; however, I also think it's a mistake to send the government the message "it doesn't matter anyway, we don't *want* competitive ADSL services". There's already a directly tax-payer funded, residential copper network in New Zealand; it just happens to have been recently owned and operated by Telecom NZ. Joe

Matthew Poole

1:35 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Joe Abley wrote:

...

On 28 Dec 2003, at 14:32, Steve Withers wrote:

*SNIP*

...

There's already a directly tax-payer funded, residential copper network in New Zealand; it just happens to have been recently owned and operated by Telecom NZ.

I think it would be quite telling if the Government were to legislatively unbundle, and reimburse Telecom only for the money they had _provably_ spent upgrading and extending the network beyond the point at which they bought it. Telling in the sense that we'd find out just how little TCNZ have been spending on maintenance. I don't see it being a huge amount - Probably no more than a couple of billion. Everyone knows that huge tracts of the network which Telecom bought have been left untouched since their purchase, save replacement of cable junctions which have failed and even that with great reluctance.

Don Gould - BVC

27 Dec 27 Dec

2:38 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Hi Mark, On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:50:00 +1300 (NZDT), Mark Foster wrote

...

http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,100633-200550,00.html

Thanks for the reference.

...

"If you are acquiring our Jetstream service for private, residential purposes"....

I had a quick look at those T&C and it didn't seem to indicate that there were any conditions placed on what I do with the service. As I understand it Telecom has been challanged on issues like this before with relation to their telephone service where small businesses are operating from home.

...

Where the service is being obtained for a purpose that doesnt fit into the above the t&c for business customers comes into affect- and jetstream starter is a residential product, can only be given to residential customers.

What is the difference between a business and residential service? In Australia most people seem to agree that it's the level of back up you can expect. If something breaks business customers get seen to first - are we so different here?

...

As much as Rob's comment looks like FUD there's an element of truth.

100% Agree. Most FUD always has an element of truth... let me give you an example... What do you think would happen if Telecom were to sue (as suggested by Robert) a New Zealand family for sharing part of their JetStart connection with their local school? Would the kids give up their $10 a month TXT and be content with using a little less txt on a Vodafone mobile and then tell all their friends to do the same? (I won't even go into the field day that Vodafone would have with that one!) Would the family cancel their ADSL account, Sky Accont and home phone line accounts then switch to Telstra cable, with their pay tv offering and then tell all their relations to do the same? Would mum and dad put preasure on their employers to move their data, mobile and voice services away from Telecom and to another provider? Could 800 Students ranging in age from 12 to 17 have a huge impact on a telephone company if said telephone company started to sue them... [1]

...

Schools are businesses and are charged business rates.

Schools are in the business of teaching our children. Those children go on to become the future of New Zealand. Children are some of the biggest buyers of telecommunication products and services - least Telecom forget that.

...

Telecom also cut them various deals to get online as economically as possible.

Thanks for the info. Cheers DiG [1] Have a quick look at what's happening in the US where families have been sued by the music industry - suing a child does not make you look good in the press! -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Tony Wicks

2:42 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

ah, guys, I hate to point out the blaringly obvious, but you can't just get 100x128k (or more) connections and stick them together and think you have 12 meg of real bandwidth. It just doesn't work that way, there is no device that load balances 100 (or more !) http (or whatever) connections out lots of little pipes, and if there was it would be utterly chaotic and unworkable. Also remember, ISP's only survive because they can oversell the wholesale bandwith they buy. When you buy your 128k Jetstart connection, your are NOT buying 128k of Internet dedicated to you. If all the users used all of their bandwith ALL ISP's would go broke in a matter of months. -----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:38 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! Hi Mark, On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:50:00 +1300 (NZDT), Mark Foster wrote

...

http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,100633-200550,00.html

Thanks for the reference.

...

"If you are acquiring our Jetstream service for private, residential purposes"....

...

Where the service is being obtained for a purpose that doesnt fit into the above the t&c for business customers comes into affect- and jetstream starter is a residential product, can only be given to residential customers.

...

As much as Rob's comment looks like FUD there's an element of truth.

...

Schools are businesses and are charged business rates.

...

Telecom also cut them various deals to get online as economically as possible.

Don Gould - BVC

3:02 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

Hi Tony, On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 22:42:31 +1300, Tony Wicks wrote

...

ah, guys, I hate to point out the blaringly obvious, but you can't just get 100x128k (or more) connections and stick them together and think you have 12 meg of real bandwidth.

Correct. 1 * 12mbit connection will be different from 100 * 128k connections. However look at the customer - a class of 35 students. How hard would it be to set up 35 VPN tunnels so that each student is using one each of 35 'shared' connections? I don't think this wouldn't be to hard to automate. I haven't put to much thought into it but I'd suggest that you could still improve on the performance of 1 adsl link if you're drawing off 35 sources.

...

It just doesn't work that way, there is no device that load balances 100 (or more !) http (or whatever) connections out lots of little pipes, and if there was it would be utterly chaotic and unworkable.

That comment just reads like a challenge to prove you wrong - never tell a can do kiwi "can't"! :)

...

Also remember, ISP's only survive because they can oversell the wholesale bandwith they buy.

You raise a very good point. All this discussion over the weekend has reminded me that ISPs are going to have to change an inovate. How are they doing in the Wellington CBD with CityLink as competition?

...

When you buy your 128k Jetstart connection, your are NOT buying 128k of Internet dedicated to you. If all the users used all of their bandwith ALL ISP's would go broke in a matter of months.

I've seen this debate time and time again and I'm left thinking that it's going to bite someone eventually if not sooner. I just read the ToC on my account and it doesn't say that I should not expect that I can use each of my two connections 100% of the time. Sure it says I only get 5gb of international data but nothing about my used of the connection for national data execpt that the data is not counted. Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Robert McDonald

3:29 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:02, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...

I just read the ToC on my account and it doesn't say that I should not expect that I can use each of my two connections 100% of the time. Sure it says I only get 5gb of international data but nothing about my used of the connection for national data execpt that the data is not counted.

No your right it says you can leech as much as you like national..... BUT it does not give you a CIR, meaning if they decide to they have every right to limit your access to that resource. They also have every right to share say 1mbit between 100 customers. Now if they all leeched 128 solid 24/7 they wouldn't get top speeds. A CIR (Commited information rate) is what you need if you want reliability. Jetstart 128k is NOT what you buy to get reliability, and 128k 100% of the time when you need it. Come on, I thought everyone knew this stuff? Cheers Rob

Don Gould - BVC

4 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:29:23 +1300, Robert McDonald wrote

...

No your right it says you can leech as much as you like national..... BUT it does not give you a CIR, meaning if they decide to they have every right to limit your access to that resource. They also have every right to share say 1mbit between 100 customers. Now if they all leeched 128 solid 24/7 they wouldn't get top speeds.

...

A CIR (Commited information rate) is what you need if you want reliability. Jetstart 128k is NOT what you buy to get reliability, and 128k 100% of the time when you need it.

...

Come on, I thought everyone knew this stuff?

I have two adsl connections and I've been fair hammering them all weekend for one thing or another (the wife's been installing php, apache, mysql, bbphp2 and more on her laptop). I get more than 128k CIR out of them all the time. Yes, I know what you'e saying and you are quite right. I also note that Xtra doesn't say that the service is not a 128k CIR. While you and I understand how the ISP business works I also understand that a product or service has to be what it professes to be. Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Don Gould - BVC

2:12 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:38:37 +1300, Tristram Cheer wrote

...

Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know

You'll know far more about what's going on in NZ schools that I do... I'm still trying to find out more about that at present so please excuse my if I seem to be talking thru a hole in my head - I'm an ideas guy, I come up with creative ideas that might or might not work or be pratical. 1. How long are schools going to stay paying 5 figures a month for ADSL connections (or were you talking per annum)? 2. A school with 800 students represents 800 families[1]. Let's do some math, assume 25% get connected (200) at ~$70 per month. That's $14,000 a month - how many schools are paying $14k? 3. How long will it be before the schools in Wellington join CityLink because it's cheaper? Cheers DiG [1] Yes I know there will be some brothers and sisters in there but you get my point :) You could also factor in the businesses that those parents also represent. -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Tristram Cheer

2:21 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

1) Its PA - I wont give out a exact amount but I know of 4 schools in Wellington spending 50-60k PA 2) This will never happen - At least not in Wellington because of the geographical distribution of the families. In Wellington its mot likely that those 200 families cover 30 square km's and have at least 2 big hills in the way. For this reason costs to connect these families would drastically increase. 3)CityLink's network can really only reach 4 maybe 5 schools with its fibre, Of the top of my head in Wellington (I shall include The Hutt, Porirua and All Wellington Suburbs) I can count at least 14 colleges and 23 Primary Schools. For the most part schools are not within range of high speed links. As it stands I'm looking into the possibility of setting up a wireless backbone around the Wellington region using 802.11g gear to link all school and community groups into a single network, this would allow schools the option of buying a CityLink connection and using the backbone to deliver it to the school. It's just an idea that's been floating around my head for a while Regards Tristram -----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:12 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:38:37 +1300, Tristram Cheer wrote

...

Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know

Barry Murphy

2:40 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

...

1) Its PA - I wont give out a exact amount but I know of 4 schools in Wellington spending 50-60k PA

2) This will never happen - At least not in Wellington because of the geographical distribution of the families. In Wellington its mot likely

...

those 200 families cover 30 square km's and have at least 2 big hills in

...

way. For this reason costs to connect these families would drastically increase.

3)CityLink's network can really only reach 4 maybe 5 schools with its fibre, Of the top of my head in Wellington (I shall include The Hutt, Porirua and All Wellington Suburbs) I can count at least 14 colleges and 23 Primary Schools. For the most part schools are not within range of high speed

http://crc.net.nz/ A website I found very interesting and I viewed every picture they had. "The project was intially funded by a seeding grant from the Computer Science Department We have just secured funding of NZ$927,000 over the next three years from the New Zealand Foundation for Research, Science and Technology (FRST) " Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tristram Cheer" To: Sent: Sunday, December 28, 2003 10:21 PM Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! that the links.

...

As it stands I'm looking into the possibility of setting up a wireless backbone around the Wellington region using 802.11g gear to link all

school

...

and community groups into a single network, this would allow schools the option of buying a CityLink connection and using the backbone to deliver it to the school. It's just an idea that's been floating around my head for a while

Regards

Tristram

-----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:12 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:38:37 +1300, Tristram Cheer wrote

...
Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know

You'll know far more about what's going on in NZ schools that I do... I'm still trying to find out more about that at present so please excuse my if I

seem to be talking thru a hole in my head - I'm an ideas guy, I come up with

creative ideas that might or might not work or be pratical.

1. How long are schools going to stay paying 5 figures a month for ADSL connections (or were you talking per annum)?

2. A school with 800 students represents 800 families[1]. Let's do some math, assume 25% get connected (200) at ~$70 per month. That's $14,000 a month - how many schools are paying $14k?

3. How long will it be before the schools in Wellington join CityLink because it's cheaper?

Cheers DiG

[1] Yes I know there will be some brothers and sisters in there but you get my point :) You could also factor in the businesses that those parents also

represent.

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month!

Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Jonathan Dean

26 Dec 26 Dec

1:46 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:30, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:58:43 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote

...
I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important.

Ok, why?

National traffic is important because both now and in the future, important and popular content will be hosted in Auckland and not Bluff. National traffic may not have the highest bandwidth consumption traffic compared to Aucklands and Wellington's local traffic - but it is important that everyone, irrespective of location gets the same access to the same data at the same speed - or we will end up with our own local 'digital divide'. Should a Wellington child have a better education because their school has access to a faster internet connection than a Bluff child.

...

...
A major factor why 80% of calls are local is that 80% of calls are free.

...

I doubt that's correct.

I'm probably wrong - however may I suggest that the majority of video data in New Zealand (television) is already piped via a national backbone and is free. Cheers, Jon -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/7UbVe/+/JCBbkYgRAh4bAJ4nTqo+A9Jc5Mnf8r/RV4Txn+NdsACfbb++ U7RmMTuw3Vu8j0bVK9rs/dU= =s2yA -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

Keith Davidson

2:32 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Jonathan Dean wrote:

...

...
...
I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important.

Ok, why?

National traffic is important because both now and in the future, important and popular content will be hosted in Auckland and not Bluff. National traffic may not have the highest bandwidth consumption traffic compared to Aucklands and Wellington's local traffic - but it is important that everyone, irrespective of location gets the same access to the same data at the same speed - or we will end up with our own local 'digital divide'. Should a Wellington child have a better education because their school has access to a faster internet connection than a Bluff child.

The Korean experience over the last 3 years has seen a change of ratio from 5% National:: 95%International to 95% National:: 5%International (despite significant increases in International traffic, and because of phenomenal increases in National traffic). Why would you think that important and popular content will be hosted in Auckland and not in Bluff? If we have a genuinely fast cheap national network, who would give a rats whether content is hosted in Auckland, Bluff or Eketahuna? If you start building your end of the network, and I start to build mine, and other people start to build theirs, very soon, anyone left who is not on the network will give eye teeth just to be on the network - even Telecom... Keith Davidson

Joe Abley

8:31 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On 27 Dec 2003, at 04:32, Keith Davidson wrote:

...

The Korean experience over the last 3 years has seen a change of ratio from 5% National:: 95%International to 95% National:: 5%International (despite significant increases in International traffic, and because of phenomenal increases in National traffic).

Korea is a cultural island. While I'm sure that the massive broadband build-outs in Seoul did a lot to push domestic traffic, there's also a terrific lack of demand for content hosted elsewhere due to the language barrier. Joe

Keith Davidson

11:35 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Joe Abley wrote:

...

...
The Korean experience over the last 3 years has seen a change of ratio from 5% National:: 95%International to 95% National:: 5%International (despite significant increases in International traffic, and because of phenomenal increases in National traffic).

Korea is a cultural island. While I'm sure that the massive broadband build-outs in Seoul did a lot to push domestic traffic, there's also a terrific lack of demand for content hosted elsewhere due to the language barrier.

Agreed, but the point is that there *is* far greater demand for local traffic than international. With 10 Meg pipes costing less than US$30 per month for unlimited access, the desire to shunt data locally between office and home, school and home, home to home, traffic webcam to home or work etc etc increases dramatically, whereas the need to see more USA based pr0n websites doesn't neccessarily increase. I was using Korea as an extreme example, but even the Citylink model shows the way. I know Citylink customers who shunt huge files across Wellington every day, and either laugh or cry at those who don't have Citylink connections who have to pay telcos large dollops of dosh each month for the quantities of data they push around. Cheers Keith Davidson

Juha Saarinen

27 Dec 27 Dec

12:47 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Keith Davidson wrote:

...

I was using Korea as an extreme example, but even the Citylink model shows the way. I know Citylink customers who shunt huge files across Wellington every day, and either laugh or cry at those who don't have Citylink connections who have to pay telcos large dollops of dosh each month for the quantities of data they push around.

I know of several people in my area who don't shunt huge files across networks, even though they would like to do so as their work requires it. It's too expensive and anyway, there is no practical alternative that's fast enough (around 10Mbps). So, they send CDs and DVDs on couriers. That's actually the Real NZ Broadband Connection Alternative. (Wellingtonians: no, the rest of the country does not have all the options you have...) -- Juha

Will Steele

12:50 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Hah, yeah especially the ones in Auckland who have all the "environmentally friendly" people trying to stop TC :/ -----Original Message----- From: Juha Saarinen [mailto:juha(a)saarinen.org] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 08:48 To: Keith Davidson Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. I know of several people in my area who don't shunt huge files across networks, even though they would like to do so as their work requires it. It's too expensive and anyway, there is no practical alternative that's fast enough (around 10Mbps). So, they send CDs and DVDs on couriers. That's actually the Real NZ Broadband Connection Alternative. (Wellingtonians: no, the rest of the country does not have all the options you have...) -- Juha _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Keith Davidson

12:54 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Juha Saarinen wrote:

...

I know of several people in my area who don't shunt huge files across networks, even though they would like to do so as their work requires it. It's too expensive and anyway, there is no practical alternative that's fast enough (around 10Mbps). So, they send CDs and DVDs on couriers. That's actually the Real NZ Broadband Connection Alternative.

Thus contributing further to Auckland's traffic woes.... If Auckland considered spending money on a decent network, rather than roads, then the traffic problems might sort themselves out, letting more people work from home etc etc...

...

(Wellingtonians: no, the rest of the country does not have all the options you have...)

The Wellington model can be uplifted and used anywhere - all it takes is someone to start the process. Cheers Keith Davidson

Juha Saarinen

1:03 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Keith Davidson wrote:

...

Thus contributing further to Auckland's traffic woes....

If Auckland considered spending money on a decent network, rather than roads, then the traffic problems might sort themselves out, letting more people work from home etc etc...

Well, yes. It would also allow businesses that require Internet access to situate themselves in many more areas, instead of the few now (I can think of Auckland CBD, Albany and Papakura).

...

The Wellington model can be uplifted and used anywhere - all it takes is someone to start the process.

Of course it can. There are no practical impediments, only political ones. I'm wondering why it was OK to string cable all over Wellie, but when Telstra was going to do the same here, the NIMBY mayors all stopped it. -- Juha

Rodger Donaldson

1:37 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sun, Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:59AM +1300, Juha Saarinen wrote:

...

Of course it can. There are no practical impediments, only political ones. I'm wondering why it was OK to string cable all over Wellie, but when Telstra was going to do the same here, the NIMBY mayors all stopped it.

Actually resistence set into Saturn in Wellington, too, especially once they started cabling the rich neighbourhoods, like Roseneath. For a while we had "action committees" trying to get existing cable buried. They got off a bit easier here because so much is already above ground - whining about Saturn cable looks a bit patethic if you're in a street that already has trolley bus cables. -- Rodger Donaldson rodgerd(a)diaspora.gen.nz ...the wedged connections would have probably made the machines unusable after a month or so, but I would turn the machines off every weekend while I went gallivanting off to promote the homosexual agenda. --david parsons

Richard Naylor

4:29 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 09:37 a.m. 28/12/2003 +1300, Rodger Donaldson wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:59AM +1300, Juha Saarinen wrote:

...
Of course it can. There are no practical impediments, only political ones. I'm wondering why it was OK to string cable all over Wellie, but when Telstra was going to do the same here, the NIMBY mayors all stopped it.

Actually resistence set into Saturn in Wellington, too, especially once they started cabling the rich neighbourhoods, like Roseneath. For a while we had "action committees" trying to get existing cable buried. They got off a bit easier here because so much is already above ground - whining about Saturn cable looks a bit patethic if you're in a street that already has trolley bus cables.

Tristram Cheer

11:08 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

There is a national group forming to create wifi backbones in major regions, non-commercial stuff but should be interesting to see what happens www.nzwireless.org Regards Tristram -----Original Message----- From: Richard Naylor [mailto:richard.naylor(a)citylink.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 12:30 p.m. To: rodger(a)diaspora.gen.nz; Juha Saarinen Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. At 09:37 a.m. 28/12/2003 +1300, Rodger Donaldson wrote:

...

On Sun, Dec 28, 2003 at 09:03:59AM +1300, Juha Saarinen wrote:

...
Of course it can. There are no practical impediments, only political ones. I'm wondering why it was OK to string cable all over Wellie, but when Telstra was going to do the same here, the NIMBY mayors all stopped it.

Actually resistence set into Saturn in Wellington, too, especially once they started cabling the rich neighbourhoods, like Roseneath. For a while we had "action committees" trying to get existing cable buried. They got off a bit easier here because so much is already above ground - whining about Saturn cable looks a bit patethic if you're in a street that already has trolley bus cables.

yeah they were dumb. every utility engineer knew you could run overhead anywhere in Wgtn, BUT NOT Roseneath and Wadestown. Saturn had US Cable TV guys doing what Cable tv guys do - just run cable. rich _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Richard Naylor

4:26 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 09:03 a.m. 28/12/2003 +1300, Juha Saarinen wrote:

...

Of course it can. There are no practical impediments, only political ones. I'm wondering why it was OK to string cable all over Wellie, but when Telstra was going to do the same here, the NIMBY mayors all stopped it. clue - it was a strategic decision. Early in around 1992 we altered the district plan to allow one more cable, opening a gate for both CityLink and Saturn. It triggered a $450Mill spend with a x10 multiplier in the economy. That 3 line clause was as big as the LOTR project.

Most towns and cities have prohibited overhead, but there are ways.of allowing it without the Saturn mess. In Nelson teh conent allows one wire in teh same plane as the power lines. For fiber thats just fine. Fiber doesn't mind being attached to the power wires - just get someone who knows what they're doing to do it. A major problem NZ has is that it de skilled massively and there are few folks with the clue left. Hence Peter Motts comment yesterday. NZ has a huge skill challenge for the next 10 years. rich

Steve Withers

11:57 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sun, 2003-12-28 at 12:26, Richard Naylor wrote:

...

Most towns and cities have prohibited overhead, but there are ways.of allowing it without the Saturn mess. In Nelson teh conent allows one wire in teh same plane as the power lines. For fiber thats just fine. Fiber doesn't mind being attached to the power wires - just get someone who knows what they're doing to do it.

I've never understood what the problem was with Saturn cable on poles. When I lived in Wellington, that cable never bothered me for a second. I always though that people who were bothered by it weren't busy enough.

...

A major problem NZ has is that it de skilled massively and there are few folks with the clue left. Hence Peter Motts comment yesterday. NZ has a huge skill challenge for the next 10 years.

This goes back to student loans and loss of apprenticeships. Now, we import labour - and their families (and descendents - forever) - to fill short term skills gaps.....instead of training our own people. D'oh -- Steve Withers

Richard Naylor

26 Dec 26 Dec

3:16 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 09:46 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:30, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:58:43 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote

...
I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important.

Ok, why?

National traffic is important because both now and in the future, important and popular content will be hosted in Auckland and not Bluff. National traffic may not have the highest bandwidth consumption traffic compared to Aucklands and Wellington's local traffic - but it is important that everyone, irrespective of location gets the same access to the same data at the same speed - or we will end up with our own local 'digital divide'. Should a Wellington child have a better education because their school has access to a faster internet connection than a Bluff child.

that fails to take in what we announced recently - the building of IXs in 4 regional cities, DN, CHC, PNN and HAM. When we did the LOTR streams we used servers in both IXs (WIX and APE). IXs are a core part of the network. The data will reside where it makes sense, ie keep local contnent local, where its needed and where the cheap bandwidth (free) is. The idea of the IXs is to encourage construction of many local high speed networks and encourage peering at those IXs. Thats why we did LOTR - as well as having fun. we shifted around 12TBytes for LOTR in 8 hours. Don't try that on todays national network. rich

Richard Naylor

3:01 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 08:58 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Jonathan Dean wrote:

...

I believe that if high speed internet is available, the national traffic will be the most important. A major factor why 80% of calls are local is that 80% of calls are free.

...

Of course most people don't send 10.5GB files overseas - because on DSL they would be bankrupted. Do Citylink users have the ability to send 10.5GB offshore if they want too - without paying international tariffs?

traffic on CityLink is free, we charge by connection and service level. Off CityLink is done by the ISPs.

...

Ultimately, I just want all the schools in New Zealand to be able to actually communicate with each other using high speed networking. It seems to me that government will ensure that every school has access to high speed internet (DSL etc.) but none of them will ever be able to afford to use it.

we've seen that alreadxy. But the balance in all this is as well as networking, the other plank in the economic development concept is the development of local content creation businesses. ie you use the high speed to go look for local content because (in the words of the Min of Culture and Heritage) "it reflects local communities" (or something like that - used to describe regional TV)

...

If we look at the US internet pyramid it is probably

80% national 15% local 5% international

probably.

Joe Abley

8:28 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On 27 Dec 2003, at 02:58, Jonathan Dean wrote:

...

If we look at the US internet pyramid it is probably

80% national 15% local 5% international

I think in fact in the US there is no difference between the first and last category. Other countries pay to reach the US in general; the most it costs a US operator to reach a foreign country is the cost of reaching the part of the US where that foreign country is connected. Joe

DPF

1:14 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:23:22 +1200, "Don Gould - BVC" wrote:

...

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:48:06 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

...
...
Richard, what is TUANZ doing now that you see of value? well they use the word "broadband" now, so soon it might be understood that a modem is dead useless and people might ask for more.

Ok I'll take the hint and just ignore them... Sounds a bit like the mob in AU that I wasted time contacting.

...
They REALLY need to start pushing VoIP so we can get over this PSTN stuff.

What VoIP <--> PSTN gateways are around the place so you can jump back into the pstn?

...
well get 10 homes and you write to Frank March asking for a Network Operators Licence (sorry Frank).

And I find Frank where...

...
Then use Section 13 (in the old act) which basically says "fess up or come see the Judge".

Hummm.... sounds like I need to do some reading, are NZ acts on line? Linkie linkie? :)

www.legislation.govt.nz. DPF -- Blog: http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz E-mail: david(a)farrar.com ICQ: 29964527 MSN: dpf666(a)hotmail.com

Barry Murphy

11:54 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

...

At 05:28 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1200, you wrote:

...
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:02:37 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

...
At 05:30 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Steve Withers wrote:

...
TUANZ just bleated on about number portability and interconnect and failed to see what else was on offer. They've finally woken up to broadband - about 6 years too late.

Richard, what is TUANZ doing now that you see of value?

well they use the word "broadband" now, so soon it might be understood

...

a modem is dead useless and people might ask for more. They REALLY need to start pushing VoIP so we can get over this PSTN stuff.

...
Are there any rules now about putting a bit of cable up along the back fence?

What can I do if I want to run around my block but one neighbour doesn't want to be connected?

well get 10 homes and you write to Frank March asking for a Network Operators Licence (sorry Frank). Then use Section 13 (in the old act) which basically says "fess up or come see the Judge".

Sect 148 is also usefull, you can get buggers who muck up your network done for "interferring with a network" for $5k per day.

I've used Sect 13 twice - once in power, once at CityLink.. Both times on a Govt agency - Defence :-) Both worked like a charm. Time to agreement measured in hours

...
Do I have to be a "registered anything"... for example in AU you have to

Does one need an operator license to sell internet over wireless to +-30 people in their area? Barry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Naylor" To: Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. that pay

...

...
$10,000 to get a carrier licence to do anything with the internet unless it's provided free - even then I think there are still rules.

Nope - Frank doesn't charge. But try to buy him a lunch from time to time. Two folks that I know have achieved Operator Status this year. It is NOT hard. Except of course that I want personal status so I can get my cat-5 a bit further down the street and Frank won't do that. Maybe its time I bought you lunch Frank......

...
IAWR - Be a leader rather than a follower!

see earlier posting and go buy cat-5.......

rich PS since we're all having so much fun, the other "mainframe mentality" architecture in my view is the TV industry. A good example is NZ ON Air. Their 5 year plan mentions Internet ONCE - when it gives their webiste address........oh shame.....

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Richard Naylor

noon

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 07:54 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, you wrote:

...

Does one need an operator license to sell internet over wireless to +-30 people in their area?

nope - not if you're using the 2.4GHz space. Don't get hung up over the licence. Its just people think its hard to dig up the road and the Lic means a Council can't refuse. I believe you don't need the Lic to dig, its just helps. In Wn lotsa folk do it. PMs Dept, WCC, VUW, Hospital, MFAT, etc. WCC Road folks now like to enforce a few standards (other than trenching ones) like who will record it and do the mark out etc. We tend to help here, especially if given the right to run a future fiber in the duct. rich

Don Gould - BVC

12:33 p.m.

New subject: Telstra Duct

Anyone know much about the history of Telstra down here in Chch? In AU they were forced to share duct space. Is there much ducts sharing here? They rolled out phones everywhere, did the council make sure that others could leverage off that? Cheers DiG (I changed the subject heading as the topic has sort of moved from comcom and bit stream :) On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 20:00:18 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote

...

At 07:54 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, you wrote:

...
Does one need an operator license to sell internet over wireless to +-30 people in their area?

nope - not if you're using the 2.4GHz space.

Don't get hung up over the licence. Its just people think its hard to dig up the road and the Lic means a Council can't refuse. I believe you don't need the Lic to dig, its just helps.

In Wn lotsa folk do it. PMs Dept, WCC, VUW, Hospital, MFAT, etc. WCC Road folks now like to enforce a few standards (other than trenching ones) like who will record it and do the mark out etc. We tend to help here, especially if given the right to run a future fiber in the duct.

rich

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Simon Lyall

3:40 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Richard Naylor wrote:

...

At 05:28 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1200, somebody wrote:

...
Are there any rules now about putting a bit of cable up along the back fence?

What can I do if I want to run around my block but one neighbour doesn't want to be connected?

well get 10 homes and you write to Frank March asking for a Network Operators Licence (sorry Frank). Then use Section 13 (in the old act) which basically says "fess up or come see the Judge". [...] Nope - Frank doesn't charge. But try to buy him a lunch from time to time. Two folks that I know have achieved Operator Status this year. It is NOT hard. Except of course that I want personal status so I can get my cat-5 a bit further down the street and Frank won't do that. Maybe its time I bought you lunch Frank......

I'm sure somebody would be happy to start the "Suburban Wire Trust" or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else. On a practical level, we had a walk around my block and counted 89 houses/flats in my block and 36 and 40 in nearby ones. At say 20-30% takeup it should be too hard to dig some little tranches down the back boundary and have a L2 ring ( anyone know the cheapest switch model that handles trucks? ) for say $200 each setup. The main problem is that I've now got to hook my little block into the rest of the country. I'm inner suburbs Auckland ( Near Dominion Rd, between Mt Roskill and Balmoral Roads) but Tangent is at least 3kms from where I am. Even assuming I can convince them to extend their Network and plug me in I'm told their minimum port cost is now around $1000 per month ( I think this might the the telco mentality that other mentioned). Quick website checks say that Micro trenching gets down to just $US 10 per foot so if I wired up Dominion Rd I'd be looking at a good $100k. Of course I'd be able to service around 80 blocks on the wires and probably close to 10,000 houses. Double this for luck since I've got no experience in this technology. Repeat about 20 times and I'd probably have Fibre to the block for around 400,000 people for 4-5 million dollars. When I get more than 10 people on each block interested I charge them $100 each and do a cat 5 loop though the back boundaries. Charge people $20 per month to connect and offer them 10Mb/s g'tee and 100Mb/s most of the time. They can then buy their Internet off whoever and their who off whoever else (see vonage.com for that model). At least thats the model that you can adopt if you have a few million spare or are some far thinking council (which seem to be thin on the ground in NZ). If I'm just a geek I can probably get the block wired up and then maybe spread to nearby blocks slowly but getting to the other side of town would seem to b the problem. How do others see it happening? (I suspect what I've written above has several holes and big cost underestimates). -- Simon J. Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT. "Those who sacrifice sound quality for hard disk space deserve neither."

Richard Naylor

3:58 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 11:40 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Simon Lyall wrote:

...

I'm sure somebody would be happy to start the "Suburban Wire Trust" or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else.

the Electric Fence Trust ?

...

On a practical level, we had a walk around my block and counted 89 houses/flats in my block and 36 and 40 in nearby ones. At say 20-30% takeup it should be too hard to dig some little tranches down the back boundary and have a L2 ring ( anyone know the cheapest switch model that handles trucks? ) for say $200 each setup.

D-Link DGS-1005D - but no trunks - why do you need them ?

...

The main problem is that I've now got to hook my little block into the rest of the country. I'm inner suburbs Auckland ( Near Dominion Rd, between Mt Roskill and Balmoral Roads) but Tangent is at least 3kms from where I am. Even assuming I can convince them to extend their Network and plug me in I'm told their minimum port cost is now around $1000 per month ( I think this might the the telco mentality that other mentioned).

use wireless. When we started CityLink we used a 2mbps microwave to VUW for at least 2 years. THats where Netlink were. Of course they shifted just after we got fiber there........ Remember this is the Inter Net, so use what ever works while you build. Most users will be happy if its faster than a 56k modem for now and if its cheaper.. I aimed for a price point of $100 per month, but that was for fiber down the road.......

...

Quick website checks say that Micro trenching gets down to just $US 10 per foot so if I wired up Dominion Rd I'd be looking at a good $100k. Of course I'd be able to service around 80 blocks on the wires and probably close to 10,000 houses. Double this for luck since I've got no experience in this technology. Repeat about 20 times and I'd probably have Fibre to the block for around 400,000 people for 4-5 million dollars. When I get more than 10 people on each block interested I charge them $100 each and do a cat 5 loop though the back boundaries.

Charge people $20 per month to connect and offer them 10Mb/s g'tee and 100Mb/s most of the time. They can then buy their Internet off whoever and their who off whoever else (see vonage.com for that model).

At least thats the model that you can adopt if you have a few million spare or are some far thinking council (which seem to be thin on the ground in NZ).

If I'm just a geek I can probably get the block wired up and then maybe spread to nearby blocks slowly but getting to the other side of town would seem to b the problem.

How do others see it happening? (I suspect what I've written above has several holes and big cost underestimates).

great starting point. The figures are pretty right. Getting a Council to accept microtrenching is a challenge, but maybe we can all pressure them on that one. They certainly want the development. And thanks Simon for starting the thread - its been a great discussion. rich

Richard Naylor

4:03 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

At 11:58 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Richard Naylor wrote: bad form I know, but had an idea...

...

At 11:40 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Simon Lyall wrote:

...
I'm sure somebody would be happy to start the "Suburban Wire Trust" or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else.

why not the 2020 Communications Trust. They did Netday for schools, so now maybe Netday for homes/neighbourhoods/commmunities...... rich

Lin Nah

4:20 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

What Simon didn't add is around the neighbourhood, the power lines are still above ground. It isn't unforseeable that these will be buried at some point. Just not sure of the time frames. A lot of Mt eden, Mt Roskill, Sandringham area all have power lines above ground. They did bury the power lines at the Sandringham Rd shops a couple of months back. A lot of rah rah rah in the local paper about how it beautifies the place etc (job also included doing the footpath nicely etc). However I wouldn't be surprised if nothing else but power was laid down there. Richard suggested

...

Getting a Council to accept microtrenching is a challenge, but maybe we can all pressure them on that one. They certainly want the development. So even if this doesn't happen, perhaps putting things in motion so when the move is to bury the power cables, they will have to lay some other cables down there (even if it is just pipes with strings along there so someone can later on pull fibre/cat5 through.

regards lin

Juha Saarinen

27 Dec 27 Dec

12:31 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Lin Nah wrote:

...

However I wouldn't be surprised if nothing else but power was laid down there.

I believe the same happened on the North Shore, where for some reason the lines company just bunged the electricity cables underground, and nothing else. -- Juha

Don Gould - BVC

26 Dec 26 Dec

4:21 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:40:08 +1300 (NZDT), Simon Lyall wrote

...

I'm sure somebody would be happy to start the "Suburban Wire Trust" or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else.

Rich said 10 people... he didn't say they have to be in the same block... Let's start a list and see where we go.

...

On a practical level, we had a walk around my block and counted 89 houses/flats in my block and 36 and 40 in nearby ones. At say 20-30% takeup it should be too hard to dig some little tranches down the back boundary and have a L2 ring ( anyone know the cheapest switch model that handles trucks? ) for say $200 each setup.

Seems like a good place to start.

...

Charge people $20 per month to connect and offer them 10Mb/s g'tee and 100Mb/s most of the time. They can then buy their Internet off whoever and their who off whoever else (see vonage.com for that model).

Now you're talking my language! :) Thanks for the link.

...

At least thats the model that you can adopt if you have a few million spare or are some far thinking council (which seem to be thin on the ground in NZ).

So we need a plan to motivate councils?

...

If I'm just a geek I can probably get the block wired up and then maybe spread to nearby blocks slowly but getting to the other side of town would seem to b the problem.

I'm glad I live in Christchurch... that's not as hard here as it is up in your end of the woods. :) Wellington wouldn't be that easy either - ea Rich :)

...

How do others see it happening? (I suspect what I've written above has several holes and big cost underestimates).

Bits of it sound like the making of a plan to me... Big thanks to all those who've taken part in this discussion this weekend... I've learnt lots about what's going on in NZ (having spent 6 years over the ditch). Cheers DiG -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community!

Keith Davidson

4:34 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Don Gould wrote:

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At least thats the model that you can adopt if you have a few million spare or are some far thinking council (which seem to be thin on the ground in NZ).

So we need a plan to motivate councils?

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Big thanks to all those who've taken part in this discussion this weekend... I've learnt lots about what's going on in NZ (having spent 6 years over

In my experience, it's really easy to *motivate* your local Council, it's just soo much harder to turn motivation into action. That's why my earlier suggestion was to make submissions to your Council's Annual Plan. Reasons for this approach: 1. During the submission evaluation process, arguing against having a "Citylink" model in your city / town / village is akin to arguing against motherhood. No-one is going to argue against it. 2. If adopted in the Annual Plan, then the Council has to enforce it, i.e. it'll start to happen. You see already this thread getting subverted, with people talking about digging up roads at costs of $xxx. What we need is a long term objective of *not* digging up roads, but every time someone else digs up a road, or a trench, there is a duct put in that you can pull / blow / suck some cable through sooner or later. I reckon almost every road is dug up and resealed every 10 years or so, so maybe the objective should be to complete the project within 10 years... So the total plan could resemble: 1. Everytime there's a hole, put a duct in, ensuring ducts link to other ducts. 2. Form small neighbourhood networks by straddling roofs, fences, etc etc 3. Join neighbourhood networks together whenever possible 4. Constantly consolidate demand - single fatter faster pipe connecting larger and larger neighbourhood networks. 5. Use wireless in the mix, either for your local network, or your point to point link to the rest of the network. the

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ditch).

It has been fun, but I for one am sick of talking, and want to start doing... Citylink is an amazing model, seldom replicated. I'm not sure why, maybe it all seems to simple. Imagine truly ubiquitous high speed networking, available everywhere to everyone, at modest cost, and in community ownership. Imagine what you could do with such a network. Streaming video by the TB with no data charges... Video cameras in your office that you can monitor from home. Traffic web cams. Backing up data from home to work and work to home. Working from home. Homing from work. Endless options and opportunities. Keith Davidson

Jonathan Ah Kit

4:37 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

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or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else.

Rich said 10 people... he didn't say they have to be in the same block...

Let's start a list and see where we go. /me puts up lists.electric.gen.nz's hand, if that's what Don meant. fence[at]lists.electric.gen.nz, perhaps? :)

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On a practical level, we had a walk around my block and counted 89 houses/flats in my block and 36 and 40 in nearby ones. At say 20-30% takeup it should be too hard to dig some little tranches down the back boundary and have a L2 ring ( anyone know the cheapest switch model that handles trucks? ) for say $200 each setup.

Seems like a good place to start. Anyone done some informal market research yet? Scientific research? All

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What is the data equivalent to a 230v 60 amp supply ? 10 100 100 Mbps ? IIRC, I'd say 100. Gets large graphics-infested Pagemaker draft pages to

Seriously... this hinges on the take up to me. Pity my street doesn't seem to have by the looks of things people who seem to have a need for this sort of thing... but I don't have any f2f research. On a related topic: the printer pretty quickly. I remember one year belting off 60-80 pages of school yearbook (a whole afternoon) on 10mbit or parallel, and on 100mbit the next on the same printer... oh, the difference... much less than an afternoon. As for video, I wouldn't have a clue, though. Regards Jonathan -- Jonathan Ah Kit - Lower Hutt - New Zealand jonathan(a)ah-kit.dropbear.id.au - http://www.ah-kit.dropbear.id.au/ ahkitj(a)paradise.net.nz - ICQ#9747234 - http://www.electric.gen.nz/ Away message: Looking for adhesive tape, not Alibrandi. On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Don Gould - BVC wrote:

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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 23:40:08 +1300 (NZDT), Simon Lyall wrote [snippety snip]

Lin Nah

5:55 p.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003, Jonathan Ah Kit wrote:

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or something which could gain the status and do it on behalf of every body else.

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Rich said 10 people... he didn't say they have to be in the same block... Same block means you can wire it up without crossing streets. ie along fence lines.

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On a practical level, we had a walk around my block and counted 89 houses/flats in my block and 36 and 40 in nearby ones. At say 20-30% takeup it should be too hard to dig some little tranches down the back boundary and have a L2 ring ( anyone know the cheapest switch model that handles trucks? ) for say $200 each setup.

Seems like a good place to start. Anyone done some informal market research yet? Scientific research? All

Seriously... this hinges on the take up to me.

Pity my street doesn't seem to have by the looks of things people who seem to have a need for this sort of thing... but I don't have any f2f research. Don't judge it by looks. There are a lot of internet users out there. yes some are happy with slower links etc but if it is affordable, I don't think the uptake will be that low. As with other things, there's

Hmm there are at least 5 - 6 households within a 1 km radius am where I think we could have a small network. Unfortunately, it will have to be wireless unless we have the ability to string wire across the power poles to cross roads. the early adoptors who will always want to be the first to try the new thing while others will follow as time goes by. If there's a lot of rental property in your area, perhaps their uptake of DSL isn't high because those living in rental accomodation will find that it costs $$$ every time you move to a new flat unless you happen to move when telecom discounts the $99 fee to $0. So DSL is only feasible if you are in a fairly stable living arrangement. It does put a dent in things if you end up having to move 2 or 3 times a year. The thing is although this takes a lot of lobbying etc, I also don't have much faith in city councils. I mean we have the town planning of Auckland city council saying they were "taken by surprise" by the low quality of apartments and all that going up. With local body elections coming up next year, perhaps we can set up a campaign to bring the whole thing to their attention. ie send questions in to the various candidates seeking reply etc. Anyway this sort of lobbying and action plan is off topic here 8) regards lin

Juha Saarinen

10:58 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Don Gould - BVC wrote:

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Are there any rules now about putting a bit of cable up along the back fence?

Local by-laws, the Resource Management Act, councils wanting money from you...

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What can I do if I want to run around my block but one neighbour doesn't want to be connected?

I believe that issue has yet to be tried. The alternatives would be to lease space from the neighbour, or obtain a status similar to what Telecom enjoys when it comes to cable laying, for your community network.

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Do I have to be a "registered anything"... for example in AU you have to pay $10,000 to get a carrier licence to do anything with the internet unless it's provided free - even then I think there are still rules.

Not in NZ as far as I know. It's the last frontier ;-) -- Juha

Peter Mott

10:31 a.m.

New subject: Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.

Richard Naylor wrote:

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It failed because people failed to understand it. They still wait for someone else to do it for them and complain about what Telecom do or don't do. Why not do it yourself. There were absolutely no barriers to doing just that, just laziness and ignorance.

Alas Richard echoes a sad truth. We live in a country where dependancy and political correctness rule. A few days ago an imigrant contractor who has been working for us said he was considering leaving New Zealand. A well educated man with plenty to contribute. The reason had nothing to do with difficulty in getting work after finishing here. He was concerned the kiwi attitude of "sit around and wait for others to do it for you" was teaching his young children to be lazy. He doesn't want to leave his children dependant on anybody. Think about it. -- Peter Mott Chief Enthusiast 2DAY INTERNET LIMITED http://www.2day.com "Hell, there are no rules here - we're trying to accomplish something!" Thomas A Edison

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25 participants

participants (25)

Barry Murphy
Caveman
David Zanetti
Don Gould - BVC
DPF
James Spooner
Joe Abley
Jonathan Ah Kit
Jonathan Dean
Juha Saarinen
Keith Davidson
Lin Nah
Mark Foster
Matthew Poole
Michael Hallager
Peter Mott
Richard Naylor
Robert McDonald
Rodger Donaldson
Simon Lyall
Simon Lyall
Steve Withers
Tony Wicks
Tristram Cheer
Will Steele