Although I can see your point, if you take this position with spammers on your network, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Orcon's IP blocks
As you will know - Orcon is a wholesaler to a large number of ISP's and web
hosting companies around NZ.
If a customer of one of the ISP's we service SPAM's - we don't cut the ISP
off for inadvertently spamming by way of their customer - because it's not
their fault. Any issues like this are generally referred to the ISP hosting
the customer.
With regard to our terms and conditions there is a clear distinction between
customers directly on our network, and wholesale customers who have their
own networks and customers behind us.
I can assue you, as will have been evidenced in the past, that direct
customers of ours on our network who spam or cause problems are dealt with
swiftly, however wholesale customers are generally allowed to make their own
rules about what must or must not be allowed in the case of spamming.
In this issue, cutting of strongnet because of the actions of Phil Hunt
would affect a lot more customers than simply him alone. As a wholesale
customer, I am affecting all their customers as well if I take such action.
It is important to understand that an individual is not necessarily
equivalent to a company, and where we have wholesale contracts with a
company, the actions of one director may not be warrant, justify or allow
the removal of services to that company.
There are some issues which people will not be aware of that make this very
complicated for us, and as I have said - we are in the middle.
I certainly do not condonde the actions that have happend, however
suggesions from people to "cut Strongnet off!" are not helpful when not all
the facts may be known.
You can be assured that myself and Orcon act with the utmost of integrity,
and that I am not simply "changing the rules" for one particular customer.
Cheers
Seeby
Orcon Internet - www.orcon.net.nz
----- Original Message -----
From:
in the various email blacklists as being spammer-friendly.
You're changing your terms and conditions for individual users, which, I believe, is not really acceptable.
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You can be assured that myself and Orcon act with the utmost of integrity, and that I am not simply "changing the rules" for one particular customer.
Whilst I hate spammers in a fairly vehement way - ask anyone whos worked with me - I also recognise we issue warnings to our customers first (in a lot of cases). While I understand the cries of 'cut him off!' are deafening I understand your position, I think some of the other requests coming from NZNOG are reasonable - i.e. a public apology and admission that this will not happen again. I think its not unreasonable to expect this from Strongnet and I think if they arent willing to deliver, then you should be making it bloody difficult for Strongnet. They are using your netblocks, after all, so their conduct reflects on your network. Mark. (Who doesnt envy you at all). --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
There seems to be general consensus for an apology. The SPAM appears to be in clear breach of Orcon's Terms of Use. Since Strongnet's email is the only "evidence" so far, it is perhaps opportune to "review" any sudden DNS changes of AOL customers to Strongnet. A modest "review" period would permit all parties to reconsider the merits, or otherwise of the case, and would allow Orcon to continue service and billing. Any sanctions will need industry consensus. Individuals should not run off and make arbitary decisions. I am in agreement with Peter about industry self regulation. Rgds Roger Mark Foster wrote:
You can be assured that myself and Orcon act with the utmost of integrity, and that I am not simply "changing the rules" for one particular customer.
Whilst I hate spammers in a fairly vehement way - ask anyone whos worked with me - I also recognise we issue warnings to our customers first (in a lot of cases).
While I understand the cries of 'cut him off!' are deafening I understand your position, I think some of the other requests coming from NZNOG are reasonable -
i.e. a public apology and admission that this will not happen again.
I think its not unreasonable to expect this from Strongnet and I think if they arent willing to deliver, then you should be making it bloody difficult for Strongnet. They are using your netblocks, after all, so their conduct reflects on your network.
Mark. (Who doesnt envy you at all).
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-- \_ Roger De Salis rdesalis(a)cisco.com
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Roger De Salis wrote:
Since Strongnet's email is the only "evidence" so far,
Well, I don't know if it counts, but Bruce Simpson at Aardvark says he spoke to Phil Hunt, who admitted to the spam run, and also said that he assembled the address list by doing a zone transfer from nz99.waikato.ac.nz. According to Simpson, Phil Hunt "seems to remain unrepentant for his spamming", and claims to have "picked up business from Asia Online customers as a result [of the spam run]". Oh well, I guess it pays to spam then. -- Regards, Juha --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Juha Saarinen wrote:
nz99.waikato.ac.nz.
That should be ns99.waikato.ac.nz of course. -- Regards, Juha --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Juha Saarinen wrote:
On Mon, 29 Oct 2001, Roger De Salis wrote:
Since Strongnet's email is the only "evidence" so far,
Well, I don't know if it counts, but Bruce Simpson at Aardvark says he spoke to Phil Hunt, who admitted to the spam run, and also said that he assembled the address list by doing a zone transfer from nz99.waikato.ac.nz.
ns99.waikato.az.nz isn't a server for 'nz' or its second level domains so when was he supposed to have done this transfer? I've just tried it and can't download the zone and as far as I'm aware this hasn't been available for several months. Of course an out of date copy would still do a pretty good job on this. Trying the servers for 'co.nz': $ for i in ns1.dns.net.nz ns2.dns.net.nz ns3.dns.net.nz ns4.dns.net.nz gorgon.xtra.co.nz mx.nsi.nasa.gov; do xfer co.nz $i; done named-xfer[35967]: send AXFR query 0 to 202.46.161.3 named-xfer[35967]: [[192.168.5.9].4143] transfer refused from [202.46.161.3], zone co.nz named-xfer[35970]: send AXFR query 0 to 202.46.160.5 named-xfer[35970]: [[192.168.5.9].4144] transfer refused from [202.46.160.5], zone co.nz named-xfer[35973]: send AXFR query 0 to 203.97.8.250 named-xfer[35973]: [[192.168.5.9].4145] transfer refused from [203.97.8.250], zone co.nz named-xfer[35976]: send AXFR query 0 to 203.97.40.200 named-xfer[35976]: [[192.168.5.9].4146] transfer refused from [203.97.40.200], zone co.nz named-xfer[35979]: send AXFR query 0 to 202.27.158.34 named-xfer[35979]: [[192.168.5.9].4147] transfer refused from [202.27.158.34], zone co.nz named-xfer[35982]: send AXFR query 0 to 128.102.18.31 named-xfer[35982]: [[192.168.5.9].4148] transfer refused from [128.102.18.31], zone co.nz
According to Simpson, Phil Hunt "seems to remain unrepentant for his spamming", and claims to have "picked up business from Asia Online customers as a result [of the spam run]".
This is not a technical issue - it's a commercial one and should be on the nzcig list (nz commerical isssues group). I find it fascinating as an external observer that it's the technical staff in the main having these discussions. These flamefests (which seem to me what they are) about the evils of spam are preaching in general to the converted on this list. Unless each of those technical staff can go away and convince their commercial and legal people that this is something that those departments need to act on then this will keep surfacing, we'll all go "tut tut, how terrible", someone will justify doing nothing (or at best a slap with a wet lettuce) and the issue will go back to sleep until the next time. Alternatively hand it over to the Aotearoan Organisation for the Resolution of Theosophical Arguments (AORTA) and get them to sort it out. You can always tell when they're involved as you see statements of the form, "AORTA do this and AORTA do that". Oops, silly me, they're already on the case. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (5)
-
Andy Linton -
Juha Saarinen -
Mark Foster -
Roger De Salis -
Seeby - Orcon Internet