Message: 12 Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 10:31:53 +1200 From: Dean Pemberton Subject: Re: [nznog] Telstraclear international proxy? To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Message-ID: <4A809FD9.3040700(a)deanpemberton.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 11/08/09 12:31 AM, Anton Smith wrote:

...

In the beginning when diagnosing the problem, an engineer might not even know that the problem lies with Telstra, and we have seen people posting http headers and so on in the past wondering what was going on.

I don't believe that was the case in this instance.  It was not a general query about a general problem.  It was a specific technical issue with a specific ISP.  In that case a trouble ticket should be logged with the ISP first, then post to the list.  I'd even accept if these were both done at the same time.

To not give the ISP involved a chance to address the issue through normal customer support channels is not giving them a fair go. Some ISPs are not very good at customer support, but if you don't log the call, then how can you expect anything of them.

I'll explain some more why this is so important; In years gone by, NZNOG was seen by the major Telcos and some ISPs as a bunch of troublemakers.  I know this for a fact because I've worked for them while they held this opinion.  They viewed NZNOG as a group of individuals constantly waiting to bash them at any opportunity.  The minute that someone found a bug, or a technical issue, they would post it first to NZNOG and everyone would hang the associated ISP/Telco out to dry.

As such, no one from those organisations joined NZNOG, contributed to NZNOG, attended the NZNOG conference, etc etc etc.

Over time we have worked very hard to re-engage with the ISPs and Telcos, making NZNOG a place where they can derive benefit from contributing to.  Just today we see Paul Tinson posting about Telecom's cache changes.  I doubt anyone would disagree that this is the sort of involvement that we want.

Do you think that TelstraClear are going to engage with NZNOG if just the week previously an NZNOG member was posting publically about technical issues on their network before giving them a chance to address them?

It's a bit like someone buying a shirt at a store, being unhappy with it, and doing a spot on Campbell Live before  going back to the shop and asking for a refund.  Now sure, Campbell Live has its place.  It even has a place for long running retail disputes, but it shouldn't be the first port of call.  And neither should NZNOG.

We work hard with the Telcos to keep them engaged (the benefits of which can be seen in Telecoms post this morning), please keep this in mind when posting.  Just make sure you've worked with them first.  If you have and they did a bad job, then by all means post and all bets are off =)

Dean

Hi Dean, Given the general difficulties in resolving problems with various ISP/Carriers it is sometimes a fact that the only place you can learn what you need to is here. I'm very heartened by the Telecom post about their caching, and being very specific about the path to follow if there are issues encountered. That is exactly what I believe is missing from Telstra. Perhaps our discussions here (that may be deemed off topic in which case I shall raise the virtues of beer later) are actually constructive in that they can help highlight to carriers how a proactive approach might be used. I do however completely agree with you that it is important to foster a greater sense of community that includes the carriers, ISPs and NZNOG. It is important that NZNOG is not just seen as a bashing list. However, I did not really see that the original post about the caching was negative, and far from "bashing".. so I hardly think that the relationship between NZNOG and Telstra would have been damaged. Maybe my own post had a disgruntled tone, for which I apologise - I shouldn't have done that. I do believe that proactive approaches from the bigger players towards the list (like the Telecom post) are brilliant, and I encourage others (Telstra) to do something similar. Regards, Anton