Would you like IPv4 addresses with that OS, sir?
Are Microsoft not completely committed to the IPv6 process or are they just hedging their bets? http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/24/microsoft_ip_spend/
As often found with media stories, the truth is more complicated and less exciting. See the comments from the ARIN CEO at the bottom of this article: http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2011/3/23/4778509.html Jay On 25/03/2011, at 9:56 AM, Andy Linton wrote:
Are Microsoft not completely committed to the IPv6 process or are they just hedging their bets?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/24/microsoft_ip_spend/ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
-- Jay Daley Chief Executive .nz Registry Services (New Zealand Domain Name Registry Limited) desk: +64 4 931 6977 mobile: +64 21 678840
Also, there's nothing new here. IPv4 prefixes have been considered as assets in bankruptcies, mergers and acquisitions for many years. I believe that when ATT acquired the IBM Global Network for $US5B in 1999, they got two very lightly used /8s as part of the deal, for example. Everybody serious has known that IPv4 would run out since the early 1990s, so I doubt if the actual IANA runout has really affected the grey market price. In fact this is why we wrote RFC 1881 in 1995, so that the situation would be clear for IPv6 from the start. Regards Brian Carpenter On 2011-03-25 10:00, Jay Daley wrote:
As often found with media stories, the truth is more complicated and less exciting. See the comments from the ARIN CEO at the bottom of this article:
http://blog.internetgovernance.org/blog/_archives/2011/3/23/4778509.html
Jay
On 25/03/2011, at 9:56 AM, Andy Linton wrote:
Are Microsoft not completely committed to the IPv6 process or are they just hedging their bets?
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/03/24/microsoft_ip_spend/ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 09:56 +1300, Andy Linton wrote:
Are Microsoft not completely committed to the IPv6 process or are they just hedging their bets?
Surely IANA/ARIN/whoever could stop this sort of thing just by raising their hand? Seems like a bit of an abuse of process. And MS might be taking a bit of a risk that they'll do that and loose the addresses. Erin
The attitude from the RIRs is very much the following: "If we make transfers hard, or in some way try and disallow them, then they will happen anyway and our trusted registry function will suffer." RIRs have always had a number of functions. Handing out IP addresses is only one of them. The other important one is keeping a trusted list of who HAS those resources. This trusted list is what we all want to ensure remains accurate. We use it everyday to find out who owns a certain part of the internet. If we can't trust that list anymore, then we will loose the ability to trace accountability on the internet. Anything that we do to encourage the underground or blackmarket transfer of IP addresses harms this function. ARIN might have been able to stop the transfer (although I don't know if they actually could have done anything except refuse MS any further addressing), but if they did do you honestly believe that a transfer wouldn't have taken place anyway? Regards, Dean On 25/03/11 10:01 AM, Erin Salmon wrote:
Surely IANA/ARIN/whoever could stop this sort of thing just by raising their hand? Seems like a bit of an abuse of process. And MS might be taking a bit of a risk that they'll do that and loose the addresses.
Erin
_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
On 25/03/11 10:01, Erin Salmon wrote:
Surely IANA/ARIN/whoever could stop this sort of thing just by raising their hand? That would be idiocy, frankly.
I cringe every time I see someone saying the IP address space has run out or will run out. There is a whole third of the available, usable address space out there that is not advertised on the Internet. Dark. Unused. Available for re-allocation. The key to releasing that space is for the holders to have an incentive to do so. That means selling it. IP address space is a scarce resource in economic terms, and that has been recognised for a very long time. A market for IP addresses already exists, regardless of whether the RIRs choose to try to block it, ignore it or get with the programme and facilitate it. I wrote all this up a wee while ago here: http://www.don.nz.net/wordpress/?p=82 -- don
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 11:43 +1300, Don Stokes wrote:
On 25/03/11 10:01, Erin Salmon wrote:
Surely IANA/ARIN/whoever could stop this sort of thing just by raising their hand? That would be idiocy, frankly.
Right. The only thing that surprises me about that particular story is the *incredibly* low price that Microsoft paid for those addresses. In due course the effects of this being a scarce resource must turn it into a seller's market and the price *will* climb precipitously. Sadly, at around USD$2,700 for a /24 I expect that in time we'll see them realising at least a 10:1 ROI for that particular purchase, before the market ultimately dissolves into an ocean of IPv6. That's also one place that the economic incentives to move to IPv6 is going to come from, as well - which could be very rewarding for those who are ready before the right moment arrives, and can "take economic advantage" of those who are not so well-prepared. Cheers, Andrew. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ andrew (AT) morphoss (DOT) com +64(272)DEBIAN Write a wise saying and your name will live forever. -- Anonymous ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,
I know that liquidators will do everything they can to suck the last dollar
out of a company to pay out creditors etc, and in some situations it might
seem legitimate to bundle up IP resources that are being used.
APNIC (not sure about ARIN, I haven't read their t&c) clearly states:
"If there is an insolvency event then the Company may by written notice
immediately revoke all of the Member's rights under the APNIC Documents and
terminate this Membership Agreement."
Now some level of discretion would probably be appreciated as this has the
potential to impact heavily on networks that are trying to recover some
value by selling operational parts of their business. But flogging of a huge
amount of dark address space sounds fairly much like an activity the
registries might want to stop dead.
Perhaps there is a fear at the registries that they might face legal action
if they try to do something about it? It could get very messy. Obviously
these allocations are valuable and people will no doubt find a judge who has
no idea how the system works. A lot of people believe they own them, when
really they own the rights to justify their usage to a governing body. If
they can't justify the current use, insolvency sounds like a perfect reason
for a registry to snap up a few more addresses for their free-pool.
Maybe historical allocations might be a bit different because they didn't
sign any agreement that had this clause in it. Where there's a will there's
a way.
Anyway my 2c
Rob
PS, anyone got some IPv4 space for sale? Beer?
On Fri, Mar 25, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Andrew McMillan
On Fri, 2011-03-25 at 11:43 +1300, Don Stokes wrote:
On 25/03/11 10:01, Erin Salmon wrote:
Surely IANA/ARIN/whoever could stop this sort of thing just by raising their hand? That would be idiocy, frankly.
Right. The only thing that surprises me about that particular story is the *incredibly* low price that Microsoft paid for those addresses.
In due course the effects of this being a scarce resource must turn it into a seller's market and the price *will* climb precipitously. Sadly, at around USD$2,700 for a /24 I expect that in time we'll see them realising at least a 10:1 ROI for that particular purchase, before the market ultimately dissolves into an ocean of IPv6.
-- *Rob McDonald | *Director Level 2 Systems Ltd *M:* +64 21 902 929 *eFax:* +64 9 974 4734 *W:* http://www.L2.co.nz http://www.l2.co.nz/
On 25/03/2011, at 10:48 PM, Rob McDonald wrote:
But flogging of a huge amount of dark address space sounds fairly much like an activity the registries might want to stop dead.
I seem to remember a similar sentiment being expressed back in the early days when trading in domain names commenced. The free market prevailed and an industry was born. Today it funds the global governance junkets that many people here attend. I am watching for ARIN and friends to reset their resource transfer fees to be per IPv4 host address rather than per transaction. regards Peter Mott Swizzle | Cloud Servers Tel. +64 21 279 4995 -/-
On Sat, Mar 26, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Peter Mott
The free market prevailed and an industry was born. Today it funds the global governance junkets that many people here attend.
I am watching for ARIN and friends to reset their resource transfer fees to be per IPv4 host address rather than per transaction.
The domain name situation is a little different at least because there is institutions in place that protect people who have valid rights to use a domain name (eg trademarks) Preaching to the converted here but... the domain name system is set up to deal with end users, the RIRs are not. Try telling the owner of "beer.com" that he/she has to give it up to a brewery just because they make "beer". vs telling an ISP that since they are insolvent the RIR is taking back their resources and allocating them to someone else. There is really only 2 options here, they ignore the RIR and keep using the resources, or they concede and give them back. If they keep using them without permission and that activity became common place, it won't take long for a system to be put in place (forgive me if there already is) whereby you must register your routes with the RIR and other networks can dynamically verify the authenticity of your routes by AS path say. Or just upgrade to ipv6. Print so many IPs that they become worthless, bit like the zimbabwean dollar. -- *Rob McDonald | *Director Level 2 Systems Ltd *M:* +64 21 902 929 *eFax:* +64 9 974 4734 *W:* http://www.L2.co.nz http://www.l2.co.nz/
participants (9)
-
Andrew McMillan -
Andy Linton -
Brian E Carpenter -
Dean Pemberton -
Don Stokes -
Erin Salmon -
Jay Daley -
Peter Mott -
Rob McDonald