Sahil said to me, as well as publically on the site that the "auditor's" report would be made available publically on the website. After a number of months I saw him again, and casually asked, whats up with that auditor's report, and he shrugged it off, as if to say "that was a joke". Secondly Sahil obviously did know about it, so shrugging it off as his staff's fault is amusing in the least
On Thu, 3 Jul 2003 23:01:16 +1200, -
Sahil said to me, as well as publically on the site that the "auditor's" report would be made available publically on the website. After a number of months I saw him again, and casually asked, whats up with that auditor's report, and he shrugged it off, as if to say "that was a joke". Secondly Sahil obviously did know about it, so shrugging it off as his staff's fault is amusing in the least
I find it hard to understand why there must be more abuse of net4u & co. on this list. Surely there's been enough net4u-bashing over the past few months that we all have made up our minds whether or not to consider them to provide us with Internet access or peering in the future. So why must more and more things be brought forward? All it does is clogs my inbox. So shush. On another note, Whos going to Netforum? A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too promising.. -- Nathan Ward Esphion Ltd.
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, Jeremy Brooking wrote:
Nathan Ward wrote:
On another note, Whos going to Netforum? A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too promising..
There are those of us who would love too...
But cannot afford the insane pricing.
<grump> By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in central Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500 bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving). If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5% training budget then it'll cover it. Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day and nobody much attended. </grump> I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are not going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you have for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend. Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any feedback anonymous. I went to a little peering forum in Sydney organised by Equinix a couple of weeks ago and there were around 25 ISPs that attended that. It was just an afternoon from 2-6 with 3-4 quicks talks and plenty of coffee and drinks in between to meet people (and over a dozen went out to dinner afterwards). Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power, aircon, security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there already so it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower seems to be the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do with something closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or half a dozen racks worht of space) Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have happened (feel free to correct me). -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
As far as I'm aware, Philip D'ath does indeed have a co-location centre. Its BIG.. Has large Generators. And even bigger air-conditioning units.. I'm not sure if he's still running it or not though. Regards, Craig Spiers Director ConceptNet Limited Phone +64 9 414 4297 Fax +64 9 915 2559 Mob +64 21 571 202 -----Original Message----- From: Simon Lyall [mailto:simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz] Sent: Friday, 4 July 2003 12:28 p.m. To: Jeremy Brooking Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, Jeremy Brooking wrote:
Nathan Ward wrote:
On another note, Whos going to Netforum? A quick survey of Auckland Thursday Night Curry attendees didn't look too promising..
There are those of us who would love too...
But cannot afford the insane pricing.
<grump> By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in central Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500 bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving). If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5% training budget then it'll cover it. Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day and nobody much attended. </grump> I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are not going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you have for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend. Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any feedback anonymous. I went to a little peering forum in Sydney organised by Equinix a couple of weeks ago and there were around 25 ISPs that attended that. It was just an afternoon from 2-6 with 3-4 quicks talks and plenty of coffee and drinks in between to meet people (and over a dozen went out to dinner afterwards). Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power, aircon, security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there already so it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower seems to be the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do with something closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or half a dozen racks worht of space) Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have happened (feel free to correct me). -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz _______________________________________________ Nznog mailing list Nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
On Thursday, Jul 3, 2003, at 20:28 Canada/Eastern, Simon Lyall wrote:
I have got the impression back that a reasonable number of people are not going to go this year. I'd be interesting in knowing what reasons you have for not attending and what sort of event you would and could attend.
Feel free to send me private email and I can summarise to the list. I'm not in the business of organising these sort of things so I'll keep any feedback anonymous.
At other *NOG meetings I've been to, people seem to find it worth attending more or less regardless of the content being presented, or the cost (I know several people in the US who have been unemployed for a year or more, and yet still religiously attend the NANOG meetings, paying out of their own pockets). The presentation/workshop programme and/or opportunity to showcase products or services is the management justification for being there, but there's still a lot of personal and business benefit to just being cooped up with a bunch of other operators in a hotel with little else to do but talk and drink beer. It only takes a chance five-minute conversation with someone else which results in a new transit deal, some new cost-sharing strategy, a peerting session or even a new job, and suddenly the cost of the hotel bill and the conference fee look like pretty good value for money. Joe
On Thursday, Jul 3, 2003, at 20:59 Canada/Eastern, Joe Abley wrote:
It only takes a chance five-minute conversation with someone else which results in a new transit deal, some new cost-sharing strategy, a peerting session or even a new job, and suddenly the cost of the hotel bill and the conference fee look like pretty good value for money.
Peering, not peerting. Peerting is still illegal in some jurisdictions.
Simon Lyall wrote:
<grump> By which I assume you make less than $20,000 per year and live in central Auckland. Seriously it's $250 per day, if you go on two days thats $500 bucks. $20/per weeek if you started saving at the start of the year when this was first mentioned (and I think I told people to start saving).
If you present you get that day free. If you talk your work into a 5% training budget then it'll cover it.
Exactly what sort of pricing could you afford? I remmeber the little ISP forum that Internetnz had a couple of years back, that was $50 per day and nobody much attended. </grump>
Perhaps my _insane_ comment was a bit of an overstatement. First post I saw regarding it was 9th of 3rd. So that would make it about $50 a week. And of course, we all have $50 spare a week dont we?
When I was at CeBit in Sydney we spoke to several ISP's about peering as we are deploying service to NSW, With the lack of true Deregulation people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo services because of the peering facilities many of these provide. Otherwise data costs can end up killing you. We are deploying Offsite Backup servers to Australia and we are actually about to talk to Equinix because data costs where going to make it a "to hard" basket project. Anyone know what is happening with the Perth Peering Exchange? I heard about it a year ago and ive never heard it mentioned since.? I am of the understanding its been running for a while well. Best Regards Matthew G Brown Managing Director B & R Holdings LIMITED Nelson, New Zealand Ph: 027 4807731 Http://www.brh.co.nz -----Original Message----- From: Simon Lyall [mailto:simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz] Sent: 04 July 2003 12:28 To: Jeremy Brooking Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [nznog] APE Peering <snip> Had a look around Equinix's facility last week as well, very nice (usual data center with lots of racks , cages and the usual solid power, aircon, security etc). They have around half a dozen telco's in there already so it's pretty easy to buy/sell/peer with anybody. The skytower seems to be the closest we have to this here but NZ could probably do with something closer to this size (where you can just buy a dozen or half a dozen racks worht of space) Certainly if I were starting and ISP or other Internet company tomorrow we'd put out stuff straight in there rather than in our own facility. I remmeber a few proposals for such places a couple of years back (Phillip D'Ath was involved with one from memory) but none of them seem to have happened (feel free to correct me). -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz _______________________________________________ Nznog mailing list Nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, Matthew G Brown wrote: *SNIP*
people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo *SNIP*
NZ is ahead of the world on this. The ability for organisations, regardless of size, to peer for the cost of access is unique. Sure, T1 carriers in the US peer with each other, but an ISP that was even the size of the CallPlus group (relatively speaking) would get laughed at if they wanted to peer with a T1 for the cost of circuit access to a common point.
On Fri, Jul 04, 2003 at 14:45 +1200, Matthew Poole wrote:
*SNIP*
people are screaming for peering. They look at the NZ as been quite ahead of them on this issue. So many ISP's are having to use Co-Lo *SNIP*
NZ is ahead of the world on this. The ability for organisations, regardless of size, to peer for the cost of access is unique.
And pioneered by CityLink's PublicLAN and APE activities... NZ is sometimes described as "overly egalitarian." And so small, and so far away, we can't really afford to indulge in self-destructive internecine behaviour. It is possibly part of the reason (small and well connected) that NZ can deal with defectors, aka Net4ME, as easily as we do. Concepts like ease of affinity, or "social capital" depend on trust, where that can be established quickly, those who are not trustworthy can be excluded quickly. Its not a meritocracy, certainly not a closed self-selecting one, its just open. P2P anarchy really, or better, E2E. "Thus cooperation can emerge even in a world of unconditional defection. The development cannot take place if is is tried only by scattered individuals who have no chance to interact with each other. But cooperation can emerge from small clusters of discriminating individuals, as long as these individuals have even a small proportion of their interactions with each other. Moreover, if nice strategies (those which are never the first to defect) come to be adopted by virtually everyone, then those individuals can afford to be generous in dealing with any others. By doing so well with each other, a population of nice rules can protect themselves against clusters of individuals using any other strategy just as well as they can protect themselves against single individuals. But for a nice strategy to be stable in the collective sense, it must be provocable. So mutual cooperation can emerge in a world of egoists without central control by starting with a cluster of individuals who rely on reciprocity." Robert Axelrod "The Evolution of Co-operation" Sounds like NZNOG to me. Hamish. PS: http://www.opendemocracy.net/themes/article-8-1319.jsp -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. --Floating Around the Internet
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003, Matthew G Brown wrote:
Anyone know what is happening with the Perth Peering Exchange? I heard about it a year ago and ive never heard it mentioned since.? I am of the understanding its been running for a while well.
WAIX is going pretty good from all accounts. They claim to be the largest peering exchange in the southern hemesphere which might be true (I've had no luck getting access for graphs of APE so I don't know how much traffic it does in aggregate). In Australia the main options are PipeNetworks in Adelaide, Brisbane, Melbourne and Sydney, WAIX in Perth and Equinix in Sydney. Anything else is AFAIK pretty much a waste of time. Interstate data also costs the earth (at least if you are buying less than a STM-1 worth). We won't mention the Big 4. I was talking with the guys at WAIX about maybe getting various people to buy a part share in a link from WAIX to Sydney (probably equinix). Someone also suggested maybe doing the same between APE and Sydney as well if people know of options for cheap Transtasman bandwidth (hint hint). -- Simon Lyall. | Newsmaster | Work: simon.lyall(a)ihug.co.nz Senior Network/System Admin | Postmaster | Home: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz Ihug Ltd, Auckland, NZ | Asst Doorman | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz
participants (9)
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Craig Spiers -
Hamish MacEwan -
Jeremy Brooking -
Joe Abley -
Matthew G Brown -
Matthew Poole -
Nathan Ward -
Simon Lyall