Before I start, I believe this to be on topic as it pertains to some that are on this list. While strictly speaking not a 'NOG' issue, using 'marketing' under the guise of 'it cuts down chatter' or 'needless questions' is IMHO not something that should make it onto a list that is here for technical discussion - sure, answer the post, but keep it technical. At 12:20 7/04/2003, Seeby Woodhouse wrote:

My apologies to Steve and others that may hold similar views that my post was inappropriate.

I am sure that "sorry" means "I wont do it again" - so I expect that this will be the case.

My resons for copying the list were: - There are obviously people subscribed to the list interested in VISP services that haven't yet heard of us, hence a reply to the person concerned as well as the list will save future queries.

"Orcon does it" - hmm, stopping future enquiries by sending people directly to you as the first stop ? sounds markedly like marketing to me.

- There are a lot of Orcon staff members subscribed to NZNOG, and multiple people may have replied to this person if they hadn't seen a post from me.

I'm sure you are more than capable of contacting your own staff (BCC works wonders to an all-staff mailing list) and replying to the person enquiring without even touching this list.

I only post very occasionally, and although my post was promoting Orcon's services, I felt that it was on topic.

And it appears that anytime i see you 'post' something it is either defending Orcon after they screwed up or trying to market your company in the wrong forums.

Steve - I feel just as strongly as you about keeping posts relevant in NZNOG, but if every time someone posts something that a competitor feels is a 'plug' or of marginal value, they get publically dragged through the coals for it, then:

This was not marginal - it was against the reasons this list was set up. This is a technical list, not a "come buy off me" list.

A) people are going to be afraid to post articles that could be relevant to NZNOG unless they are totally sure of relevance and ISP neutrality.

And possibly this should be the case - the NOG is a group of operators, we post things that are of relevance to everyone, not simply random drivel that we _think_ might interest people. The people that are members of this list and _do_ actually post usually do so in a neutral way - with the occasional dig thrown in as this is a friendly group (as a whole) and we do know each other and their respective trades/affiliations.

B) The number of 'flame' posts critisizing people for their posts will keep outnumbering the actual posts, which is just a waste of everyone's time. (this is now the 4th post on this thread, when it could have stopped at two, as only the first two were relevant) In future, if you don't like my posts, then email me privately as I will take your comments on board.

This I thought long about - I _was_ going to e-mail you privately, but then no one else would get the benefit of understanding why they just got told off for posting their own random drivel as "but Seeby did it and got away with it x years ago !" And as for the 'flames out numbering the posts' - surely this could be a warning to someone that actually starts to post with a biased opinion on an apparently 'unbiased' list ? And as for taking comments on board' that's cool - since when have you actually _acted_ on these comments ? you used to do this same thing on usenet over and over despite people _publicly_ telling you not to. It appears that you simply don't listen.

Personally - I am happy to receive emails from other NZNOG members that are of borderline relevance, because it all helps to fit together the jigsaw of what is happening in the industry, and I want know what is going on, and who we're up against, If I didn't like the sort of posts that people are putting up, then I'd unsubscribe.

That's great, we are happy that you are happy, however, I am rather unhappy that when i post responses to peoples queries such as this I try my hardest to ensure that I in no way bias the user toward the company I work for, If I really believe that we offer the only service of this nature then I will tend to reply in private or simply post a "please contact me off list" type post - it actually makes me quite angry when someone else puts forward resources that are hijacked by some marketing drone who feels that simply because the resource is there they have some innate right to pollute everyone's mailboxen with their marketing drivel. Now, some constructive criticism to take on board. When replying to this post, you could have mentioned the other ISP's that offer VISP's, you could also have mentioned that many other ISP's would be more than willing to help setup a VISP were they being paid for it (setup costs and consulting possibly) To mention a few ISP's VISP/E3/ICONZ Morenet Ihug Attica Orcon and possibly Paradise There are also a large number of ex ISP staff that know pretty much everything there is to know about setting up an ISP and would be more than willing to offer their services to assist and advise on setups/costs etc and could also be there to offer ongoing support should you require it. (reading archives will show some names up) These all offer differing plans for telehousing/co-location should you wish to own and operate your own servers and could assist in setups, licensing fee's, backboning current infrastructure and some can even lease equipment to you and/or give you virtual space on their own managed systems. They pretty much all have account managers that you can contact for things like this and you would probably find that they will bend over backwards to have you on board. As for reputations - just look about the Internet and ask people that you know that are in the internet business how the various companies conduct themselves - also, don't forget that you are able to ask for 'reference customers' from most organisations that will put you in contact with someone that will tell you what the overall experience has been like. Starting a VISP may seem 'easy' but there should be a lot of work involved before you choose which provider to go with, and don't be scared of doing a little ground work before you make the final decision. <end example> Seeby, you should know better, infact, I _know_ that you know better and just like to push the boundaries of what's acceptable - Someday I sincerely hope it comes back to kick you in the posterior -- Steve.