At 03:29 PM 4/24/00 -0700, Josh Bailey wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2000, Josh Bailey wrote:
I thank James Tyson, Roger de Salis, Rich Taylor, Andy Linton,
Of course, I meant to type, Naylor. My apologies, Rich, especially in light of your assistance.
no probs. I;ve been meaning to follow the MBONE up. Our offer is for rack space in BOTH APE and WIX. We will also provide tech support and are looking at bandwidth (with a probable yes). We plan on Roger's router at one point and a Linux box at the other. Zebra suports DVMRP and I'm looking for something for PIM on Linux boxes. rich richard.naylor(a)citylink.co.nz This mail message contains information that is confidential and which may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and erase this mail. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
It's reall nice of y'all, and all, but could you please stop CCing _everything_ to me? Not that I mind having to delete every send message, or anything :) But seriously. I had a word with several people about bringing what can possibly grow to 5 or 10 Mb of bandwidth, and as of yet no one has said yes. However in light of Joe's generous offer I would like to get this up and going as soon as possible. I have spoken to several people who have multicast content lined up for broadcast, and I myself was thinking of setting up a few icecast streams over it (hey maybe I should blow the dust off those old barry manilow CD's :) just kidding). Also, I have heard unconfirmed rumours about an ISP that I may have had some dealings with, depending on who you talk to, wanting to set up it's own 'Internet Radio Station' or some such. If they can be convinced to multicast this then it really bodes well for the rest of the community. Obviously I am not the person to be convincing them, due to some personality clashes in the past. Speaking of Zebra, have you ever seen a Linux box with a full domestic routing table in it? It's funny, really it is. Of course, I am always available to lend a hand to leverage whomever I can, or to help with any technical problems anyone may have. I am really enthused about htis project, and it would be really damn nice to see the New Zealand internet community get off it's arse and get something done for once, instead of just wondering why ISOCNZ isn't doing it. Cheers for now. James Tyson --- Samizdat New Media Solutions --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, James Tyson wrote:
It's reall nice of y'all, and all, but could you please stop CCing _everything_ to me? Not that I mind having to delete every send message, or anything :)
More to the point, cross-posting between isocnz-l and nznog is sillyness. This has very little to do with isocnz-l.
But seriously. I had a word with several people about bringing what can possibly grow to 5 or 10 Mb of bandwidth, and as of yet no one has said yes. However in light of Joe's generous offer I would like to get this up and going as soon as possible.
Note that anything I provide transit for is most definitely not going to grow to 5 or 10Mbit/s of bandwidth, not in international transit, anyway. We have plenty of capacity through Telstra NZ and CLEAR (and anybody else who cares to peer with us at the APE).
Speaking of Zebra, have you ever seen a Linux box with a full domestic routing table in it? It's funny, really it is.
I run FreeBSD boxes with two views of the global BGP table in them. I can see how you'd be amused to see an upstart Finnish OS stay up long enough to learn the NZ subset though. <duck>
Of course, I am always available to lend a hand to leverage whomever I can, or to help with any technical problems anyone may have. I am really enthused about htis project, and it would be really damn nice to see the New Zealand internet community get off it's arse and get something done for once, instead of just wondering why ISOCNZ isn't doing it.
I'm a little confused as to why anybody thinks this is an isocnz-l issue, though. Am I missing something? Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
From: owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz]On Behalf Of Joe Abley Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 9:37 PM
[MBONE scariness] [OS jihad trolling]
Of course, I am always available to lend a hand to leverage whomever I can, or to help with any technical problems anyone may have. I am really enthused about htis project, and it would be really damn nice to see the New Zealand internet community get off it's arse and get something done for once, instead of just wondering why ISOCNZ isn't doing it.
I'm a little confused as to why anybody thinks this is an isocnz-l issue, though. Am I missing something?
From that, I deduce that there are two classes of people who might consider
I think there might be a small number of naive individuals left with the mistaken impression that ISOCNZ might actually be able to contribute to or assist in the provision of anything new, interesting or technically challenging to the Internet infrastructure in NZ. this an ISOCNZ issue, vis: (a) Naive people who haven't yet realised that ISOCNZ is essentially a secret society for those concerned, dealing exclusively with internal politicking and having absolutely no impact on the NZ Internet landscape at all, other than their own profitability; and (b) Bitter and self-righteous people who *have* figured out the above, who cross-post to ISOCNZ-l simply to 'rub their noses in it'. Figuring which of these two categories I fit into is left as an exercise for the reader. Not that I'm bitter or anything -- no, really. <R>< --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
I think there might be a small number of naive individuals left with the mistaken impression that ISOCNZ might actually be able to contribute to or assist in the provision of anything new, interesting or technically challenging to the Internet infrastructure in NZ.
I collide with this all the time at every ISP I visit, so I though I would respond. I am/have been an ISOCNZ councillor for 3 years. I was a Domainz alternate director for 1 year. This ended in January 2000. I think it would be true to say that I have personally been a very strong critic of the technical behaviour of Domainz within ISOCNZ council. Your posting struck a chord with me, and I see no reason to be open about what I have seen so far. IMHO, I don't believe there is any particular villany going on here. I would point-out that the ISOCNZ meetings are mind-numbingly boring. Things are discussed endlessly for hours, when Internet engineers would simply say "why can't we discuss useful stuff, instead of ICANN/GAC/whatever stuff.". Any competent engineer would estimate the useful decisions could be done in 5 minutes, but I digress.... The council make up is an interesting mix of personalities, of whom a small minority have some technical knowledge how the DNS works in NZ. As in all highly politicised organisations, the adroit politicians use the procedure and mechanisms to achieve the end-results, without appearing to have had anything to do with it by a casual inspection fron an external viewpoint. Domainz is legally separated from ISOCNZ, and the CEO of Domainz reports to the Domainz board, not the ISOCNZ council. So although ISOCNZ is the sole shareholder of Domainz, it has extremely limited influence over the behaviour of Domainz. Now the CEO of Domainz, being the bright and politically clueful chap that he is, basically can use the wide variety of opinion and verbosity within ISOCNZ and the Domainz board to provide wide latitude in the preferred direction. No one with half a brain has much interest in all these political shenanigins, but where it all comes horribly unstuck is when Domainz makes technical decisions without reference to the ISP industry within NZ. There used to be a technical person within Domainz, but he is no longer there for reasons it would be unwise to delve into. So Domainz cruises along with no direct technical resource. Contractors are employed of course (glazier, and several known to the ISP community) but they are of course aware who pays the piper. The new SRS system at Domainz. At various times, Domainz has showed various members of the ISOCNZ council demonstrations of the proposed system. It looks really Microweenie Access'ish, with a thoroughly described Database and schema for the billing/relationship /authorisation access to who can change what, within the system. An accountant would describe it as perfectly formed and a beautiful thing. The database runs on NT (don't know which product, even though I read all the tender documents and responses) and ultimately scribbles out a zone file, which is uplifted to some DELL PC's running Linux 6.x and Bind 8.x The only way to change the contents of the zone file is via the perfectly formed GUI (microsoft) or Web Forms interface, which does a batch update. I haven't seen the mechanism by which ISP's can do a bulk update of the system. The famous 28 page contract fundamentally revolves around how/what bulk updating can be done if any. This is an area I am not familiar with, as no information has been forthcoming. The famous 28 page contract also states that people must be nice to Domainz, and sets up what discounts apply for assuming billing and registry operations. I have no idea where the DNS secondaries will be placed, even though ISOCNZ technical council made specific recommendations about secondaries being close to the APE, WIX and one in Sydney. (It is couched in looser terms than this.) I believe the secondary in Nasa Ames will cease operations shortly, if it has not done so already. (IMHO it would be neat if a phone company with whom most of us have a relationship ran a secondary in the LA-POP... please....) I think anyone wanting to run a secondary today does so by simply doing a zone-transfer, and doing it within their own operation. The ISOCNZ policy is that anyone wanting to perform a zone-transfer can do so, providing it is for a reasonable purpose (eg running a secondary), but using it for SPAM is extensively frowned upon. (On a lighter note, I have difficulties getting Domainz to stop spamming the nameholder database with letters starting "Domainz is making changes...."). So we come to the current DNS system. Currently limping along at Waikato, with most of the staff who run it at Waikato having left. It has to end, as the Waikato Uni have no interest in running in the future. Although it could clearly be picked up and run with by someone clueful, it's design is creaking (eg Database comprising of 100,000 separate text files.). Whois:- Domainz were instructed by ISOCNZ to make available a RIPE format whois: in November 1999 formally. It had been told frequently and often prior to this of the need for whois. The current whingeing is about the fact that the perfectly-formed, beautiful thing doesn't have all the info for a RIPE format whois. Shame. The formal instruction from ISOCNZ council stands, and someone better get their finger out of you know where. The unfortunate aspect of this is the poor bugger (this is an approved word) who is doing this is trying to rectify some poor decisions. But I believe they will get there. Internet Facing Side of Domainz. Currently Domainz is fixated on the Registrar side of the business. Lot's of bills for $50. I haven't seen significant effort about the internet side of the business. eg Response time of the DNS in mS (I wrote a requirement for less than 20mS for a lookup from the IP core within NZ, and diverse secondaries.) (is this reasonable?) Also how errors within the DNS database get fixed, if for whatever reason (eg bugs) they could not be rectified using the perfectly-formed and beautiful thing. I have been informed that errors of this kind could not possibly happen, so what do I know???? That is about the current state of play. Nothing particularly terrible. ISOCNZ thinks a great deal about ICANN, and GAC and WIPO, 0867, i4free, Domainname disputes procedures and who influences Internet policy overseas, and how to get changes made within the Internet governance models. Various people tripping around to Cairo, Seattle, Seoul and points west are basically funded out of Domainz, via various properly done and properly documented methods. An example of how this is done is that ISOCNZ funded Joop Ternsra partially to ensure some representation of IDNO (Independent Domain Name ORG) at one of the recent meetings. These are sensible things to do. Personally I think these meetings are amazingly boring, but then each to their own. That is my view of the world. ============================================================== As an observer of all of this, and someone who meets several of the ISP community on a regular basis, and has to endure another ear bashing over whatever Domainz has done (or not done) recently, here are a couple of things I'd like people to think about. Custodianship of the DNS data/database. The current view is that ISOCNZ currently holds some authority over the DNS data, and Domainz administers it on their behalf. I personally believe the data has the same standing as something like "Births, Deaths and Marriages, or Companies Office". Ie each name holder has a right to access/correct their own data, and any current access shall only accrue a modest admin charge. I think the Internet Community in NZ should strongly resist notions of "ownership" and "access-restriction". (business will always try to subvert this, with a view to making a buck, but hey, that's life...) I'd look very hard at the sale of NSI to Verisign, for more money than you or I could possibly imagine, and think about that in an NZ context. Believe it or not, if someone does something monumentally stupid (eg pay staggering dosh for not much) then the someone will typically want to recover staggering amount of dosh by NEW "reasonable" charges, reasonable reflecting their current level of bank debt, rather than NZ$5 per check/change, and $NZ50 per entry maintenance. Beyond that, I don't put much store by all the conspiracy theories about Domainz floating around. Human self-interest and collective cock-up theory are much more prevalent. I am aware that this small contribution to the health of the Internet in NZ will cause some to splutter in their drinks, but I am also puzzled on the inside with the obsession with secrecy. There is little need. It is all extremely prosaic. As the internet was built on an admirable sharing ethos, it is not beyond the realms of common sense to tell Domainz, if they are trying on, to get nicked.... they are just pushing the envelope. If you were the CEO of Domainz, you would push the envelope too. It just requires some vigilance from those who think that continued, unfettered, low-cost access to the most astonishing comms revolution of our time is a good idea. There is a quid-pro-quo in all of this. It requires a mature approach by the industry, the registry, and all these un-sung engineers who make this happen. Sometimes this maturity is not evident. I would like to make a plea on behalf of some of the workers at Domainz. While you may have a strong opinion about the parentage or otherwise of some person who will/will not do something you think is entirely reasonable, there is little to be gained by the level of personal abuse some of the phone-workers have to put up with. I think this is something that we could all work to improve. That is all I have to say, and if you read this far..... it must prove something. {If ((spluttering in drink) or (foaming at mouth)) { and (( vol = max) and (device = /dev/throat)) then >/dev/null; } } Rgds Roger De Salis Rob Isaac wrote:
From: owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:owner-nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz]On Behalf Of Joe Abley Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 9:37 PM
[MBONE scariness]
[OS jihad trolling]
Of course, I am always available to lend a hand to leverage whomever I can, or to help with any technical problems anyone may have. I am really enthused about htis project, and it would be really damn nice to see the New Zealand internet community get off it's arse and get something done for once, instead of just wondering why ISOCNZ isn't doing it.
I'm a little confused as to why anybody thinks this is an isocnz-l issue, though. Am I missing something?
I think there might be a small number of naive individuals left with the mistaken impression that ISOCNZ might actually be able to contribute to or assist in the provision of anything new, interesting or technically challenging to the Internet infrastructure in NZ.
From that, I deduce that there are two classes of people who might consider this an ISOCNZ issue, vis:
(a) Naive people who haven't yet realised that ISOCNZ is essentially a secret society for those concerned, dealing exclusively with internal politicking and having absolutely no impact on the NZ Internet landscape at all, other than their own profitability; and
(b) Bitter and self-righteous people who *have* figured out the above, who cross-post to ISOCNZ-l simply to 'rub their noses in it'.
Figuring which of these two categories I fit into is left as an exercise for the reader. Not that I'm bitter or anything -- no, really.
<R><
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-- \_ Roger De Salis Cisco Systems NZ Ltd
On Mon, 1 May 2000, Roger De Salis wrote:
It looks really Microweenie Access'ish, with a thoroughly described Database and schema for the billing/relationship /authorisation access to who can change what, within the system. An accountant would describe it as perfectly formed and a beautiful thing. The database runs on NT (don't know which product, even though I read all the tender documents and responses) and ultimately scribbles out a zone file, which is uplifted to some DELL PC's running Linux 6.x and Bind 8.x
FreeBSD 3-STABLE, I think, rather than Linux -- and bind 8.2.2-P5.
The only way to change the contents of the zone file is via the perfectly formed GUI (microsoft) or Web Forms interface, which does a batch update. I haven't seen the mechanism by which ISP's can do a bulk update of the system.
Neither have most ISPs.
I have no idea where the DNS secondaries will be placed, even though ISOCNZ technical council made specific recommendations about secondaries being close to the APE, WIX and one in Sydney. (It is couched in looser terms than this.) I believe the secondary in Nasa Ames will cease operations shortly, if it has not done so already. (IMHO it would be neat if a phone company with whom most of us have a relationship ran a secondary in the LA-POP... please....)
CLEAR, Telecom, Telstra NZ and IHUG all have a presence in either the US or Australia (or both). I would strongly suggest that the requirements for running a secondary server be specified, however, and that operators of secondary nameservers should enter into a commercial contract for the service they provide rather than just relying on good will. There's enough money flying around to afford some professional nameserver hosting for the authoritative servers for NZ (regardless of how insignificant this aspect might appear in some quarters) and at the end of the day it is unreasonable to impose the uptimes and performance requirements we want from root-ish nameservers without paying for the privilege.
Whois:-
Domainz were instructed by ISOCNZ to make available a RIPE format whois: in November 1999 formally. It had been told frequently and often prior to this of the need for whois.
As long as whois-style information is available in the new system through some public interface, I will install a RIPE-a-like proxy for it a la whois.patho.gen.nz, modulo any legal threats stopping me from doing so. I am led to believe that there should be no issue, however. Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 25 Apr 2000, Joe Abley wrote:
I'm a little confused as to why anybody thinks this is an isocnz-l issue, though. Am I missing something?
I'm a member of Mr. Isaac's catagory (b) :-); besides which, my interpretation of ISOCNZ's charter is that they should be supporting this sort of thing. One topic that's come up quite regularly is the issue of travel of various ISOCNZers to far off lands to participate in nebulous meetings. IF they still have to physically attend despite good MBONE access, the rest of us will be able to literally "see" what they are up to. -- Josh Bailey (joshbailey(a)lucent.com) --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
no probs. I;ve been meaning to follow the MBONE up. Our offer is for rack space in BOTH APE and WIX. We will also provide tech support and are looking at bandwidth (with a probable yes). http://netweb.usc.edu/pim/ We plan on Roger's router at one point and a Linux box at the other. Zebra suports DVMRP and I'm looking for something for PIM on Linux boxes. CLEAR has a router at APE (has done for quite some time now). I will be terminating MBONE tunnels on that once I have time to follow up on this properly. -cw --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (8)
-
Chris Wedgwood -
James Tyson -
Joe Abley -
Joe Abley -
Josh Bailey -
Richard Naylor -
Rob Isaac -
Roger De Salis