The negative possibility being that if the industry can't sort it out, perhaps the government will remove the ambiguity, but not in favour of the industry. ...Skeeve -- Skeeve Stevens, CEO/Technical Director eintellego Pty Ltd - The Networking Specialists skeeve(a)eintellego.net / www.eintellego.net Phone: 1300 753 383, Fax: (+612) 8572 9954 Cell +61 (0)414 753 383 / skype://skeeve -- NOC, NOC, who's there? Disclaimer: Limits of Liability and Disclaimer: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain sensitive and private proprietary or legally privileged information. You must not, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient. eintellego Pty Ltd and each legal entity in the Tefilah Pty Ltd group of companies reserve the right to monitor all e-mail communications through its networks. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity. Any reference to costs, fee quotations, contractual transactions and variations to contract terms is subject to separate confirmation in writing signed by an authorised representative of eintellego. Whilst all efforts are made to safeguard inbound and outbound e-mails, we cannot guarantee that attachments are virus-free or compatible with your systems and do not accept any liability in respect of viruses or computer problems experienced.

-----Original Message----- From: Brislen, Paul, VF-NZ [mailto:Paul.Brislen(a)vodafone.com] Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2009 9:07 AM To: Andy Linton; NZNOG List Subject: Re: [nznog] Fwd: [kiwi foo campers] stubbornness

I was going to steer clear but think I should jump in at this point.

The govt has indicated that it wants the ISPs/TCF to come up with a Code of Practice and that if it doesn't it will suspend s92.

That doesn't necessarily mean s92 will vanish - the govt has suggested that if a Code doesn't get introduced (requiring buy-in from both sides ie ISPs and rights holders) then it will have to come up with its own solution. That may be non-ideal.

As an ISP we're happier working towards a solution (even if it is lipstick on a pig) that might make the existing law work while at the same time pointing out the flaws in the legislation as it stands (and I highly recommend Judge David Harvey's paper on s92 and why it should be chucked out for anyone who's interested in such things).

I guess it's a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Plus if the govt does decide to come up with a new piece of legislation we've played ball and our input will be valued. I hope.

Cheers

Paul

Paul Brislen External Communications Manager Vodafone New Zealand 021 721 337

-----Original Message----- From: Andy Linton [mailto:asjl(a)lpnz.org] Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2009 10:55 a.m. To: NZNOG List Subject: [nznog] Fwd: [kiwi foo campers] stubbornness

Seems to me that ISPs should follow TelstraClear's lead and get their ass out of the TCF negotiations ASAP.

andy

Begin forwarded message:

...

From: Richard Wood Date: 12 March 2009 10:32:37 To: campers(a)groups.baacamp.org Subject: [kiwi foo campers] stubbornness Reply-To: campers(a)groups.baacamp.org

A spokesman for Justice Minister Simon Power told NZPA it was still the Government's preference that the industry should sort out the issue itself.

"We're advised that the negotiations are going along in a reasonably constructive way so we're hopeful that could still happen, even without TelstraClear," the spokesman said.

http://www.guide2.co.nz/politics/news/copyright-negotiations- reasonably- constructive039-govt-says/11/6261

...

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Unless otherwise stated, any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not represent those of Vodafone New Zealand Limited. _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

Apologies... in a hurry. Sent it off to the poster not the list. I owe you all a beer. I said: Judge David's a good sort (happy to get bad press to publicise a bad decision etc...). http://tcf.org.nz/content/f1bbc405-74de-40c3-9b16-2c660e5d23a2.cmr As for the question on false accusation - it's a huge issue. Either the ISP has to prove that the complainant is right or that they're wrong - either way you have to investigate and that costs $$ and potentially is a breach of privacy law (IANAL of course but I think this is the next big test for s92). Or you can decide not to investigate any of it and simply respond immediately upon receipt of a legal threat, which opens you up to the possibility that you're cutting someone off from the internet who may well be able to prove their innocence and will then turn around and sue. There is no safe harbour clause for ISPs. And let's not forget, ISP doesn't mean internet service provider in this case. It means anyone who offers internet access or who hosts content. Got a website? You're an ISP. Got a wifi connection at work? You're an ISP. Paul Brislen External Communications Manager Vodafone New Zealand 021 721 337 -----Original Message----- From: Hamish MacEwan [mailto:hamish.macewan(a)gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 12 March 2009 11:27 a.m. To: nznog; Policy Advisory Group Cc: Brislen, Paul, VF-NZ; Andy Linton Subject: Re: [nznog] Fwd: [kiwi foo campers] stubbornness On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 11:06, Brislen, Paul, VF-NZ wrote:

That doesn't necessarily mean s92 will vanish - the govt has suggested that if a Code doesn't get introduced (requiring buy-in from both sides ie ISPs and rights holders) then it will have to come up with its own solution. That may be non-ideal.

It may be, S92A certainly is non-ideal.

As an ISP we're happier working towards a solution (even if it is lipstick on a pig) that might make the existing law work while at the same time pointing out the flaws in the legislation as it stands (and I highly recommend Judge David Harvey's paper on s92 and why it should be chucked out for anyone who's interested in such things).

I think the lipstick is being applied to the non-standard end of the pig. URL for Judge Harvey's paper?

Plus if the govt does decide to come up with a new piece of legislation we've played ball and our input will be valued. I hope.

Your optimism is cheering, the Governments (is that how you express Labour and National coalitions?) have had significant expert, public and industry (non-Copyright industry) input and ignored it in favour of .... Given the breadth of definition for "ISP" in the Act "the negative possibility" impacts a wider constituency.

Paul

Hamish. -- http://tr.im/HKM ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Unless otherwise stated, any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not represent those of Vodafone New Zealand Limited.

On 12/03/2009, at 11:06 , Brislen, Paul, VF-NZ wrote:

I was going to steer clear but think I should jump in at this point.

The govt has indicated that it wants the ISPs/TCF to come up with a Code of Practice and that if it doesn't it will suspend s92.

That doesn't necessarily mean s92 will vanish - the govt has suggested that if a Code doesn't get introduced (requiring buy-in from both sides ie ISPs and rights holders) then it will have to come up with its own solution. That may be non-ideal.

As an ISP we're happier working towards a solution (even if it is lipstick on a pig) that might make the existing law work while at the same time pointing out the flaws in the legislation as it stands (and I highly recommend Judge David Harvey's paper on s92 and why it should be chucked out for anyone who's interested in such things).

I guess it's a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

Plus if the govt does decide to come up with a new piece of legislation we've played ball and our input will be valued. I hope.

Paul, There's an interesting mix of pessimism and optimism in this post. We've got a bad law about to come into play and you'd rather have that than stand up and say we won't cooperate with this in case the alternative is something worse and at the same time you hope that if the government does decide to come up with something else they'll take notice of your input. They didn't last time - remember this was jointly supported by Labour and National. And you're still talking about "both sides" as though there's two parties involved - the ISPs and the recording industry lobbyists. Isn't there an issue of the rights and interests of the public at large and those who signed up with CFF? I'd ask you to think about "lipstick on a pig" - once you've snogged it a few times the lipstick will wear off and however attractive it was and it will look and smell like a pig. I don't always see eye to eye with TelstraClear's view of the world but in this case I have to say I applaud their stance. andy