Hi Joe, We could state that in our advisories, However, wouldn't it be on the same line as: Avoid car accidents, disable all petrol and diesel? Personally I would love to have the death rate on the road reduced to 0. If this is realistically achievable right now is another question. The reality is that Microsoft and all its products are a very large part of the global business world right now. Just as unsafe cars. We can make them somewhat safer by awareness and vigilance, just as driving a car. That is not to say that we don't agree with you, but the other side of the coin is that there are plenty of "non-windows" threats around; SSL, apache etc also have their own vulnerabilities. Arjen -----Original Message----- From: Joe Abley [mailto:jabley(a)automagic.org] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 3:40 PM To: Arjen De Landgraaf Cc: 'Simon Byrnand'; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: Virus alert On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 03:16:57PM +1200, Arjen De Landgraaf wrote:
From www.e-secure-it.us
DETAILED DESCRIPTION OF BUGBEAR, HOW TO RECOGNISE AND FIRST AID KIT.
It continues to amazme me that the preventative measure "do not use microsoft e-mail clients", or even "do not use windows" is never suggested as part of these bulletins. I think ISP and IT helpdesks of the world would do everybody a big favour if they just stopped supporting mail clients which make it so trivial to execute encapsulated scripts. "I propose that we deploy Microsoft Outlook". "You're fired. Never insult us with your presence again." Mmm. "I have a problem with my e-mail." "Does it say Outlook Express at the top of the window?" "Yes." <click> brrrrrrr Reply-To set :) Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 15:58 1/10/02 +1200, Arjen De Landgraaf wrote:
Hi Joe,
We could state that in our advisories, However, wouldn't it be on the same line as:
Avoid car accidents, disable all petrol and diesel?
Personally I would love to have the death rate on the road reduced to 0. If this is realistically achievable right now is another question.
The reality is that Microsoft and all its products are a very large part of the global business world right now. Just as unsafe cars. We can make them somewhat safer by awareness and vigilance, just as driving a car.
While I can see the arguments about "having" to use Windows for certain uses, (lack of specific needed applications on alternative platforms etc) there is really *NO* reason at all not to use (or consider using) an alternative to Outlook Express / Outlook. There are plenty of good alternatives available that don't automatically execute viruses, and some of them are even free. The main reason to use Outlook Express is laziness - it comes with Windows and doesn't have to be seperately installed. So Joe's "do not use microsoft e-mail clients" preventitive measure is perfectly reasonable IMO. (Even if his "do not use windows" one is less practical :)
That is not to say that we don't agree with you, but the other side of the coin is that there are plenty of "non-windows" threats around; SSL, apache etc also have their own vulnerabilities.
Yes, and fortunately on average Apache Sysadmin has a few more clues about keeping up with security updates than the average Outlook Express user :) Regards, Simon - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 03:58:36PM +1200, Arjen De Landgraaf wrote:
Hi Joe,
We could state that in our advisories, However, wouldn't it be on the same line as:
Avoid car accidents, disable all petrol and diesel?
No; I think it would be more along the lines of "do not drive vehicles which are unsafe".
The reality is that Microsoft and all its products are a very large part of the global business world right now. Just as unsafe cars. We can make them somewhat safer by awareness and vigilance, just as driving a car.
Not quite. We reduce the problem of unsafe cars by passing laws which seek to enforce minimum standards for cars. If nobody took any steps to get unsafe cars off the road, more people would die. If the most popular car on the road had a defect which routinely caused people to die, I don't think people would say "the reality is that the car in question has a large market share, so it's really not practical to encourage people not to drive it." Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Joe Are you in fact an expert on car safety, or do you buy/travel in a car based on what you know about car safety? If in fact you do, does this not make you a parallel to someone using windows and outlook express, who 'should know better'. Why do you think you travel in a particular car, is it perhaps because it's available and it gets you from A to B? I think that the Car vs Computer parallel in fact works in favour of windows in this case Joe. Check my headers if you wonder which client I use :) Cheers James <snip>
If the most popular car on the road had a defect which routinely caused people to die, I don't think people would say "the reality is that the car in question has a large market share, so it's really not practical to encourage people not to drive it."
- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
At 4:52 PM +1200 10/1/02, James Spooner wrote:
I think that the Car vs Computer parallel in fact works in favour of windows in this case Joe.
Yes, that's right. Just because everyone else in Eastern Europe is driving around in Trabants, you rush out and buy one too. Baaaaaaaaa!!!! -- Andrew P. Gardner barcelona.com stolen, stmoritz.com stays. What's uniform about the UDRP? We could ask ICANN to send WIPO a clue, but do they have any to spare? Get active: http://www.tldlobby.com - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, James Spooner wrote:
Joe
Are you in fact an expert on car safety, or do you buy/travel in a car based on what you know about car safety?
Nah, he's just the UeberTroll. :-) -- Juha Saarinen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, James Spooner wrote:
Joe
Are you in fact an expert on car safety, or do you buy/travel in a car based on what you know about car safety?
Nah, he's just the UeberTroll. :-)
-- Juha Saarinen
- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
Ok - I'll step in because I assume Donald is busy at the moment. This thread had better start having some Network related content sometime soon, or it's going to be in AUP violation. Just for the record: Joe, you're a good guy but no one cares what car you drive =) James, you're a good guy and no one cares what email client you use =) Now lets get back to normality. Dean On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 05:36:06PM +1200, Juha Saarinen wrote: - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 05:59:20PM +1200, Dean Pemberton wrote:
Ok - I'll step in because I assume Donald is busy at the moment.
This thread had better start having some Network related content sometime soon, or it's going to be in AUP violation.
The operational content was the issue of whether ISPs and alleged virus experts could or should help stop the spread of idiotic worms by encouraging users not to use vulnerable software. Vulnerable software leads to infections. Infections make the helpdesk phone ring. Infections cause packets to move. How is this not operational content? It may well be boring, poorly-written, irritating or just plain wrong, but I don't see how it's off-topic. Mailing lists actually exist in order to facilitate discussions. Jumping up and down because someone decides to start one seems a little counter-productive. Joe - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
On Tue, 1 Oct 2002, Joe Abley wrote:
The operational content was the issue of whether ISPs and alleged virus experts could or should help stop the spread of idiotic worms by encouraging users not to use vulnerable software.
Vulnerable software leads to infections. Infections make the helpdesk phone ring. Infections cause packets to move. How is this not operational content? It may well be boring, poorly-written, irritating or just plain wrong, but I don't see how it's off-topic.
Mailing lists actually exist in order to facilitate discussions. Jumping up and down because someone decides to start one seems a little counter-productive.
Much as I disagree with Joe's Stalinist attitude towards certain MUAs (like Pine), I heartily agree with the last paragraph. Moderating a discussion doesn't mean quell it all cost. -- Juha Saarinen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog
participants (7)
-
Andy Gardner -
Arjen De Landgraaf -
Dean Pemberton -
James Spooner -
Joe Abley -
Juha Saarinen -
Simon Byrnand