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RE: [nznog] TC & T Possible Peering changes
by Barry Murphy 27 May '04

27 May '04

Ok, But I still fail to see how this works. 1./ I buy my international pipe through telstra 2./ I buy my national pipe through telstra 3./ I try connect to nzdating.com but because iconz doesn't per with telstra, I use international and not 'national' and my pictures load SLOWLY!!! *phones helpdesk to complain about slow browsing* I'd freak. Whats T&T going to do to provide 'national' connectivity? Is it only national if the remote ISP peers with T. Is national defined as being within T's network only? That sucks BIG time. Somebodys been playing with their calculator to long and doesn't understand the internet to be able to make decisions like this. B My thoughts alone. -----Original Message----- From: Craig Spiers [mailto:craig(a)concept.net.nz] Sent: Friday, 28 May 2004 4:02 p.m. To: 'Barry Murphy'; 'Don Gould'; 'neil gardner' Cc: 'nznog' Subject: RE: [nznog] TC & T Possible Peering changes I think this is a stupid idea, how would you control who pays for what percentage of the link? What about the larger networks who utilise 50% of the shared link? Better to just get your own link and be done with it.. :) -----Original Message----- From: Barry Murphy [mailto:barry(a)unix.co.nz] Sent: Friday, 28 May 2004 3:59 p.m. To: 'Don Gould'; 'neil gardner' Cc: 'nznog' Subject: RE: [nznog] TC & T Possible Peering changes Why would everyone have to peer with T&T? 1./ Why don't all the ISP's currently peering at APE & WIX chip in a little and purchase a link between APE and both T or T. 2./ Assuming the traffic is flat rate and they don't charge you big time for the link, ISP's have domestic BW again 3./ Any traffic coming from T or T should go international, until such time as T or T purchase links to APE or your provider. I know this scenario is going to use up international bandwidth, but hey, outgoing bandwidth isn't as important as incoming. T&T customers will suffer the most. Barry -----Original Message----- From: Don Gould [mailto:don(a)bowenvale.co.nz] Sent: Friday, 28 May 2004 1:46 p.m. To: neil gardner Cc: nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] TC & T Possible Peering changes That's a really good question... 'bring it on'... Small claims wouldn't take much to defend and I'd suggest that's a fight the isp wants to loose (without it costing them to much in traffic so a smaller customer would be prefered). Start getting cases like this turning up in the court system and you've got leverage for a number of government agencies to take actions. However what's this question really about? Like you Neil I've been reading thru the endless banter and a few other questions come to mind... * Who are these ISPs that are using T&T for transit that shouldn't be? Why are we not also focusing on the limited number of these folk who are wrecking things for everyone else? ...or am I about to be told to shut up and keep quiet because I'm showing ignorance by not knowing that everyones doing it?! * Why don't the IX have clear policies on this issue? Why is the core of each IX not dealing to this? IX are generally a community venture, why haven't the IX set up to protect the community interest against these rogue users? Don't get me wrong, I'm not picking sides here, I've just been following the discussion and it seems to me that people are keeping quiet on some issue - perhaps I'm just stating the obvious and as a list newbi I'm just not up with all the politics yet? Someone called for someone with time to take the issue up with some lobying.... I'd put up a hand and have a look but as I see it at present the arguments suggest that the industry got what was coming to is... please don't abuse and flame me for that comment, I'm just saying it as I see it based on what's been presented in this discussion todate. Cheers Don _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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TC & T Possible Peering changes
by neil gardner 27 May '04

27 May '04

Goodness there has been a lot of stuff to wade through. I'm quite familiar with the benefits of peering and the (revenue) reasons that the big players want to change, but could someone please definitively answer this question... Will the proposed changes by Telstra mean that a large number of people currently paying different rates for National and International traffic will suddenly find that their ISP starts defining an awful lot more geographically national servers as International traffic? If this is indeed the case, have the various ISPs gotten their T&C well enough defined to defend against someone going to the small claims court and disputing a bill where traffic is obviously from a national server, even if it has transited an international link - since the ISP (may have) made a deliberate choice to route that traffic in a non-optimal fashion? Cheers - Neil G NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesyn Research Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesyn Research.

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Re: [nznog] TC & T Possible Peering changes
by neil gardner 27 May '04

27 May '04

>>> Juha Saarinen <juha(a)saarinen.org> 28/05/2004 2:06:47 p.m. >>> You're kidding right? We have T&Cs that speak of "best effort service" with no guarantee as to any aspect of delivery. I kid not... This quote is taken (almost at Random) from Paradise... "JetStart Traffic is calculated depending on the location of the site the traffic is coming from or going to. Any traffic to or from New Zealand sites (national traffic) is charged at 1/10th of the normal traffic charge, while traffic to or from a site outside New Zealand (international traffic) is charged at the full traffic rate." That tells me (in my mind) that traffic from a site in New Zealand will be charged at 1/10th of the normal rate. No normal home user should be expected to understand that just because of a spat between 2 National ISPs, Traffic from me here in Chch to a server in Wellington might go via Sydney and therefore be classed as International Traffic. Interestingly, as Paradise have that written right now, it doesn't matter. The way they have used the word "Site" in that context would clearly convey to a reasonable person that they mean the end server, not the last or most remote hop... So even if my traffic to and from Trademe goes via Timbuktu, the "Site" is Trademe, and it's a "New Zealand sites (national traffic)" (sic) Cheers - N. NOTICE: This message contains privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressee named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this message you are hereby notified that you must not disseminate, copy or take any action in reliance on it. If you have received this message in error please notify Allied Telesyn Research Ltd immediately. Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender has the authority to issue and specifically states them to be the views of Allied Telesyn Research.

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RE: [nznog] Indian government plans Internet exchanges
by Regan Murphy 27 May '04

27 May '04

> Someone with some spare hands on their time needs to lobby > the government to make peering in NZ legislation. > > Although TNZ and TCNZ will be wearing a lot of the network > costs in terms of trunking traffic up and down the country, > they also have most of the customers - so I think that's fair > and justified. Yes it is good idea. So why not also make the Govt responsible for the trunking between peering sites as well? ISPs could still organise private peering for priority traffic in this scenario. -- Regan

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RE: [nznog] Indian government plans Internet exchanges
by Gordon Smith 27 May '04

27 May '04

> -----Original Message----- > From: Craig Whitmore [mailto:lennon(a)orcon.net.nz] > Sent: Friday, 28 May 2004 12:33 p.m. > To: 'NZNOG Mailing List' > Subject: RE: [nznog] Indian government plans Internet exchanges > > > Why don't they just (like a lot of other people do), Advertise their > Auckland networks via APE only and their Wellington Networks > via WIX only. > Then they wouldn't be providing transit down the country. > > Advertising the Entire Clear Network via APE and the Entire > Clear Networks > via WIX is the problem. > Thanks > Craig > The use of BGP communities would help solve their problems regarding routing ingress and egress points. Pity it isn't more widely used..... Transits can be filtered by community tag within an AS, and most major vendors support using bgp communities in this way

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Indian government plans Internet exchanges
by Andy Linton 27 May '04

27 May '04

This URL points to the incoming Indian governments 10 point agenda form IT - http://www.ciol.com/content/news/2004/104052609.asp In particular, see point 5: 5. Plan to connect all ISPs in India to a national internet exchange in order to achieve efficient internet traffic routing, cost reduction and improve quality of service for the Internet users in India. Four Internet exchanges points to be fully operationalised. Small and big ISPs to route their traffic through this exchange to ensure the security of domestic traffic. Currently, 25 ISPs are connected. ---- Note the reasons for doing this especially "improve quality of service for the Internet users".

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netlantis news
by Pascal Gloor 26 May '04

26 May '04

Hello ppl, as you probably have noticed, netlantis is down since a while. Netlantis had critical performance problems and we decided to re-write some of the core scripts to improve the DB update. While doing this we had some new ideas about how to process the updates and much more has been re-written. There are no new features for the users, just the core-system works on a different way and all the BGP updates queuing problems will be gone. "What's new then ?" netlantis is running now since several weeks its own BGP daemon called (guess) nbgpd. So far it works well and has pretty nice performance (able to handle up to 500 full BGP sessions (tested up to 100)). "nbgpd" is dumping updates into files (per peer, per timestamp) in its own (simple) binary format. The updates are then sent to "ndb" (netlantis DB manager) which is a fast "routing table status file updater". This also runs since several weeks. the last difficulty is to convert this "ndb" format for the SQL database (to handle all the web/whois/telnet queries). So far we wrote the MySQL (MyISAM format) data file properly. "So? why isnt it up yet ????" We still have a last part to finish, writing the MySQL (MyISAM format) index file. Once this step completed, netlantis will come back up! "What's the difference for the lambda user??" Reliable informations! Until now, "global cisco bug upgrade worldwide in the world" made netlantis to go booom due to the high load of bgp updates. This will no more happen. We expect to have a delay to "real-time" of about 10 to 15 minutes, with few or many BGP updates, it wont matter! "Well, I dont care about your internal stuff, when will it be back????" We expect to bring netlantis back during the next week. We will inform you then. Best Regards, Pascal Gloor _ ______________ ___ _ ________________ / |/ / __/_ __/ / / _ | / |/ /_ __/ _/ __/ / / _/ / / / /__/ __ |/ / / / _/ /_\ \ /_/|_/___/ /_/ /____/_/ |_/_/|_/ /_/ /___/___/.org ... where all the routes meet

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Location of Tangent/Vector Fibre in Auckland, Hopetoun Street
by Paul Adshead 26 May '04

26 May '04

Does anyone know the current extents of the Tangent/Vector fibre in Auckland? More specifically how far away is it from the Ponsonby end of Hopetoun Street. I'm trying to find out how far away it is and whether it's an option or not, but Vector are being difficult... Regards, Paul Adshead Network & Systems OTL Software Ltd www.otl.co.nz

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Alternative to Running Cable down SH1
by Tikiri Wickramasingha 26 May '04

26 May '04

On Tue, 2004-05-25 at 01:53, Craig Spiers wrote: <snip> > > > > We could all possibly grab every redundant 10mbit hub in NZ and connect them > down SH1 through the north island and call it CountryLink ? > > Add up all those offcuts of Cat5 plus these redundant hubs, we could start > our own national ISP with VoIP ;) > A bit more viable - has anyone checked out the Helios project. Granted it crashed but NASA is prototyping a few newer and better ones. NASA Helios - remotely piloted, solar powered, extreme high altitude aircraft capable of carying a payload simillar to a small satelite. Uses Fuel Cells to store power generated by solar panels. It is designed to stay in the air forever. Wing Span approximately the size of a B-52 Bomber. Cost if I rememebr right was a couple million dollars. But that is a fraction of what running fibre all the way down SH1 would cost. Here is the link http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/ > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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Peering.
by Simon Lyall 25 May '04

25 May '04

Little story here by Juha: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3568316&thesection=busin… Looks like Telecom and Telstra are trying to put on a squeeze in order to make a couple more thousand per month. I'm a little surprised at the timing, Telecom has a bit of an advantage right now since it's got a monopoly on ADSL bandwidth but bitstream is only a few months away (allegedly) so it's going to be a lot easier for ADSL customers to switch pretty soon. Telstra doesn't even have that sort of leverage. I'd advise companies that are currently not connected to WIX or APE and are instead replying on the two companies above to deliver their National bandwidth to keep close tabs on things. If it suddenly costs ISPs thousands of dollars to send traffic to your site then the ISP (or whatever) is going to start looking hard are their benefits in the relationship (and remember this thousands is going to Telecom/Telstra not you). People like TVNZ . The Herald, TV3 etc who want to deliver bandwidth intensive content should take note especially. ISPs won't be able to afford to let customers watch your content all day if they are paying real money for a Telecom or Telstra circuit. And the circuit they do buy will be as small as possible. And remember if you connect to APE or WIX you have the choice of additional International bandwidth suppliers which will at least give you the chance to negotiate your next International bill down a little even if you stay with your existing Telco. It's a shame that Telecom and Telstra are basicly telling the Xtra and Paradise customers that the customers access to fast National content is less important than making a few thousand extra ( $50,000 tops, maybe ) on National bandwidth charges. Much as some sites don't offer bandwidth intensive services to International users they might be soon forced to not offer them to some (or all) National users. -- Simon J. Lyall. | Very Busy | Mail: simon(a)darkmere.gen.nz "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.

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