- NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

NZNOG-04 crew contact
by Richard Naylor 28 Dec '03

28 Dec '03

Anyone from the NZNOG-04 conference drew around at the moment ? please contact me off list tia - rich

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Broadband for all
by Peter Macaulay 28 Dec '03

28 Dec '03

The bad LLU decision is doing some good. We moving from talk to action. On balance I don't think bundled or unbundled LL will make a lot of difference. Once we get past the initial dip in momentum of the BB uptake caused by the poorly structured Telecom ADSL marketing, the alternatives will create the steep upcurve we need to ensure the everyone has access to real broadband. One of the things InternetNZ pays me to do is to find and support ways make this happen. BB is too important to leave to telcos, governments, committees, NGOs, and local authorities. The more more models being developed, the better the chance of getting one or more right. Here are some points I would like you to consider, and where appropriate act. 1) Support all local BB initiatives. I am impressed with the stuff list contributors are doing. Real impact! 2) Encourage your local council to act. For example Manakau City http://www.manukau.govt.nz/smartmanukau.htm have taken a simple step by ensuring that conduit is in place for all new subdivisions. I will meet with Banksy (Auckland City) early in the new year. 3) Put pressure on the telcos to change their thinking. If they don't they won't have much to worry about in five years apart from managing a sunset business. 4) Support legislative improvements (not more legislation!) to support BB e.g.. create opportunities for glass to go in every time a hole is dug. Most ministers are supportive, but don't see the vision. 5) Encourage the telcos to keep supporting the interop facilitation headed by Judy Speight. This initiative has the potential to pre-empt many of the issues surrounding the hooking up of local initiatives. The level of Telco support has been surprising and seems genuine. 6) The lack of support of TUANZ is a concern http://www.tuanz.org.nz/url.cfm?pg=23 I have provided a list of issues to Ernie Newman. Members should ask TUANZ why they believe there are no interop issues that the telcos won't resolve 6) Don't worry whether people want BB. Not enough spenders wants innovative thinking until it is no longer innovative. The apps to make BB everything we envision will not appear until enough of the spenders have it. Who would have guessed the uptake of texting? 7) Talk to marketing people about this. They need to learn about what we will deliver to allow them to build the markets for the new stuff. 8) Talk to everyone about the shift away from telco-think to net-think. toll rates will no longer be the way to make a profit. 9) Don't be concerned over traffic models or uses for BB. Nobody knows where it is going. It is still interesting to think about it though. 10) Make outrageous press statements. 11) Support the NGI team as they work to create the new Academic & Research BB environment. 12 Secretly develop your new killer app. 13) Give me things to do. Feel free to contact me directly. Do we need a new list for this topic? -- Peter Macaulay Executive Director InternetNZ Direct +64 4 495 2113

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Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.
by Richard Naylor 28 Dec '03

28 Dec '03

At 05:30 p.m. 27/12/2003 +1300, Steve Withers wrote: >On Sat, 2003-12-27 at 10:00, Richard Naylor wrote: > > > Personally I agree with him. NZ has had the *best* deregulated environment > > for the past 12 years and has largely squandered that advantage. > >It was never going to work - which was obvious from the outset. :-) > >So deregulation failed to deliver what was promised for it. It failed because people failed to understand it. They still wait for someone else to do it for them and complain about what Telecom do or don't do. Why not do it yourself. There were absolutely no barriers to doing just that, just laziness and ignorance. TUANZ just bleated on about number portability and interconnect and failed to see what else was on offer. They've finally woken up to broadband - about 6 years too late. >Is that really news to anyone? The same thing has happened almost >everywhere there was a dominant player effectively controlling the >market. I would disagree Steve. The dominant player is also bogged down with entrenched thinking and a huge investment in equipment thats past its use by date. Hence the earlier debate about architecture et al. So you just compete by being massively better. Its not hard when cheap gig switches are under $300 >There was - in real terms - no opportunity to be squandered. The >cost/price curves never met for competitors - because Telecom was gifted >an infrastructure that cost far more to build than what they paid for >it. The competitors tried playing on the same playing field. At a time when technology is rampantly changing, the trick is to make your own playing field using the new stuff. rich

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RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!
by Richard Naylor 28 Dec '03

28 Dec '03

At 11:08 a.m. 29/12/2003 +1300, Tony Wicks wrote: >I hate to be a stick in the mud, but once you have your Auckland to >Wellington fiber, you will then need a second one to back it up for the >times that someone dig's it up while putting in a new drain. And then >getting across the cook straight etc etc. Couldn't agree more Tony. I just wanted to show how "cheap" it was, but also that there is a market for it. I was going to say "if only someone had the time" but Roger did and has (almost) done it. I also think we need to add to this discussion that its easy to talk about building a network, but running one needs a certain experience that isn't easy to get hold of. There's a huge difference between running a few routers/wireless nodes and a network. We struggle with this at CityLink. A utility network just thinks differently and works differently and does things differently. Just because you can use a handycam, it doesn't mean you can run a TV station. Equally, just because you have a few routers, servers and wireless link, doesn't mean you can run a network. I learned a HUGE amount and have HUGE respect for the guys I worked for in the power industry for 14 years. I hope I use that learning well. Yes DO build networks, but look at how the others OPERATE. rich Tony is so right about the cable getting cut. You have to be aware it IS going to happen. We once had teh same substation catch fire twice on ONE week end (we could change the whole sub with a crane - kerbside kiosk type). Equally just after spending 3 night shifting our first CityLink node (about 5-600 fiber ccts) a major cable got cut. You have to have spares for multiple hits, have the resources (people) and proceedures so that things get done even when you're a zombie. I worked 120 hours that week on 9 hrs sleep - 2 of which were in my bed. The cut was on june 13, 2003 - a friday.

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Fwd: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!
by Michael Hallager 28 Dec '03

28 Dec '03

I can supply a high speed reliable wireless connection to any of six local schools, at a speed that exceeds "broadband" at a price far cheaper and a level of service far better, then any government scheme can. Whether I wish to put up with teachers and BOT's left wing stance that I owe it to them... for free (Almost)... is another matter. > I also think that if the telecoms providers and ISPs of NZ can't build > and operate a network for schools / police / fire service / whatever > that meets their requirements, then the government itself should build > such a network. > > I say this becasue today we spend billions on stuffing Telecom NZ's and > TelstraClear's pockets.....and the profit alone on that service would > build a kick-ass national network that would meet the infrastructural > aims and goals I have in mind. > > We have seen so far in NZ that private network providers - mainly > Telecom, but they aren't alone - are likely more expensive in the medium > and long term - at the end of the day - than a publicly-funded, > cost-recovery network would be. > > As Richard naylor has said: Why not just do it yourself? > > Is that a question to individuals only? Or could the people of New > Zealand hear that quesiton and respond? > > I agree that deregulation presented opportunity.....but where is the > competition we were supposed to see? > > It isn't there....and Telecom NZ remains the most profitable telco in > the OECD - pound for inch....and mainly becasue they were gifted - by > Richard Prebble - a publicly funded and built infrastructure that no one > else today can afford to match. > > I'll be quiet now. -- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work. URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking equipment. Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624 ------------------------------------------------------- -- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work. URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking equipment. Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624

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Fwd: DBMAIL: delivery failure
by Michael Hallager 27 Dec '03

27 Dec '03

Is anyone else receiving the below message *every* time they post? Or is this just Craig continuing on his little tantrum? ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: DBMAIL: delivery failure Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:23 From: postmaster(a)concept.net.nz To: michael(a)vivid.net.nz This is the DBMAIL-SMTP program. I'm sorry to inform you that your message, addressed to will(a)concept.net.nz, could not be delivered due to the following error. *** E-mail address will(a)concept.net.nz is not known here. *** If you think this message is incorrect please contact postmaster(a)concept.net.nz. Header of your message follows... --- header of your message --- Received: (qmail 31143 invoked by uid 511); 28 Dec 2003 10:23:49 -0000 Received: from nznog-bounces+will=concept.net.nz(a)list.waikato.ac.nz by smtp.nz.conceptnetworks.net by uid 502 with qmail-scanner-1.20 (sophie: 3.04/2.17/3.74. spamassassin: 2.60. Clear:RC:0(130.217.66.62):SA:0(0.0/5.0):. Processed in 3.915547 secs); 28 Dec 2003 10:23:49 -0000 X-Spam-Status: No, hits=0.0 required=5.0 Received: from newman.its.waikato.ac.nz (130.217.66.62) by smtp.nz.conceptnetworks.net with SMTP; 28 Dec 2003 10:23:45 -0000 Received: from newman.its.waikato.ac.nz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by newman.its.waikato.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BD5127D05; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:23:08 +1300 (NZDT) Received: from mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (mailserv.waikato.ac.nz [130.217.66.61]) by newman.its.waikato.ac.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A253127CFA for <NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz>; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:23:05 +1300 (NZDT) X-Envelope-From: michael(a)vivid.net.nz X-Envelope-To: <NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Received: from dbmail-mx3.orcon.co.nz (loadbalancer-VIP.orcon.net.nz [219.88.242.2]) by mailserv.waikato.ac.nz (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hBSAN4mu002510 for <NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz>; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:23:05 +1300 Received: from port-219-88-255-22.orcon.net.nz (port-219-88-255-22.orcon.net.nz [219.88.255.22]) by dbmail-mx3.orcon.co.nz (8.12.9/8.12.9/Debian-5) with ESMTP id hBSAJtBV006000; Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:19:56 +1300 From: Michael Hallager <michael(a)vivid.net.nz> Organization: networkStuff ltd To: Robert McDonald <rob(a)nzpages.net> Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! Date: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:26:40 +1300 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <20031228083857.00F7A82795(a)smtp-1.paradise.net.nz> <1072602335.18746.7.camel(a)tbird> <200312282246.02855.rob(a)nzpages.net> In-Reply-To: <200312282246.02855.rob(a)nzpages.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200312282326.40081.michael(a)vivid.net.nz> X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.38 Cc: NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz X-BeenThere: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.3 Precedence: list Reply-To: michael(a)vivid.net.nz List-Id: New Zealand Network Operators Group <nznog.list.waikato.ac.nz> List-Unsubscribe: <http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog>, <mailto:nznog-request(a)list.waikato.ac.nz?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://list.waikato.ac.nz/pipermail/nznog> List-Post: <mailto:nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> List-Help: <mailto:nznog-request(a)list.waikato.ac.nz?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog>, <mailto:nznog-request(a)list.waikato.ac.nz?subject=subscribe> --- end of header --- . ------------------------------------------------------- -- // Michael Hallager Director || Head geek || Making IT work. URL: http://www.networkstuff.co.nz networkStuff, NZ's leading supplier of high quality used networking equipment. Phone: 09 837-6100 (DDI) 0800 638-788 (Freecall) Fax: 09 837-8100 0800 329-788 (Freecall) Mobile: 027 477-7624

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Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!
by Michael Hallager 27 Dec '03

27 Dec '03

> This may be true for you and your community, but where I live, where lots > of people can't get stable modem connections, and can't connect faster than > say 14.4K, there are people screaming for alternatives. We have lots of > wireless "home" customers for lots and lots of different reasons, and most > of them are not in the geek category. Our community is extremely low > density population pockets, and delivering wireless over extremely diverse > topography presents extreme challenges, and in many cases the up to $20K > installation costs are offputting to the customer. Problem: If you can't get better then 14.4k connections, how are you going to internet feed your wireless POP? Telecom does not install frame connections on poor copper due to QOS SLA's. That is where the 20k install cost comes from. (Which I guess you are well aware of). Though given all of the costs involved, do you actually make money supplying home users in low density population areas?

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RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!
by Tristram Cheer 27 Dec '03

27 Dec '03

I'm yet to see a school in Wellington that has access to ADSL that isn't on it, I don't speak for all schools in NZ just the 90% I IT knowledge of their layout. Regards -----Original Message----- From: Jonathan Dean [mailto:jon.dean(a)simplicity.net.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 11:12 p.m. To: Tristram Cheer Subject: Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:38, Tristram Cheer wrote: > Most School are already on ADSL already, most in Wellington clock up A LOT > (Re: 5 figure's) of traffic so I doubt the amount of business gained would > counterbalance the loss of income from schools moving from ADSL to Wifi > Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know > > Tristram Most schools are not on DSL. Probably in excess of 90% are on dialup. Which has known monthly cost of ~$27.00 vs ???? on DSL. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/7qxve/+/JCBbkYgRAuzAAJ4w2KD1n5zv09wLD88N50IeBg9bhgCeNWUQ xMBju1RjVgyOBJVmFpa/xNE= =KwtC -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD!
by Tristram Cheer 27 Dec '03

27 Dec '03

4 - That's the lite version. The point it is that it's possible - its not the nicest of routing table I give you that but its possible Regards Tristram -----Original Message----- From: Tony Wicks [mailto:nzog(a)road.gen.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:52 p.m. To: Tristram Cheer Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! 4 is not quite hundreds. -----Original Message----- From: Tristram Cheer [mailto:james.edward(a)paradise.net.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:49 p.m. To: nzog(a)road.gen.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! www.fatpipeinc.com It is possible - Novell Small Business Suite 6 Include's FatPipe Internet which allows for 4 connections to be combined as one, with load balancing Regards Tristram -----Original Message----- From: Tony Wicks [mailto:nzog(a)road.gen.nz] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:43 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! ah, guys, I hate to point out the blaringly obvious, but you can't just get 100x128k (or more) connections and stick them together and think you have 12 meg of real bandwidth. It just doesn't work that way, there is no device that load balances 100 (or more !) http (or whatever) connections out lots of little pipes, and if there was it would be utterly chaotic and unworkable. Also remember, ISP's only survive because they can oversell the wholesale bandwith they buy. When you buy your 128k Jetstart connection, your are NOT buying 128k of Internet dedicated to you. If all the users used all of their bandwith ALL ISP's would go broke in a matter of months. -----Original Message----- From: Don Gould - BVC [mailto:dig(a)bvc.com.au] Sent: Sunday, 28 December 2003 10:38 p.m. To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc. FUD! Hi Mark, On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 21:50:00 +1300 (NZDT), Mark Foster wrote > http://www.telecom.co.nz/chm/0,5123,100633-200550,00.html Thanks for the reference. > "If you are acquiring our Jetstream service for private, residential > purposes".... I had a quick look at those T&C and it didn't seem to indicate that there were any conditions placed on what I do with the service. As I understand it Telecom has been challanged on issues like this before with relation to their telephone service where small businesses are operating from home. > Where the service is being obtained for a purpose that doesnt fit > into the above the t&c for business customers comes into affect- > and jetstream starter is a residential product, can only be given > to residential customers. What is the difference between a business and residential service? In Australia most people seem to agree that it's the level of back up you can expect. If something breaks business customers get seen to first - are we so different here? > As much as Rob's comment looks like FUD there's an element of truth. 100% Agree. Most FUD always has an element of truth... let me give you an example... What do you think would happen if Telecom were to sue (as suggested by Robert) a New Zealand family for sharing part of their JetStart connection with their local school? Would the kids give up their $10 a month TXT and be content with using a little less txt on a Vodafone mobile and then tell all their friends to do the same? (I won't even go into the field day that Vodafone would have with that one!) Would the family cancel their ADSL account, Sky Accont and home phone line accounts then switch to Telstra cable, with their pay tv offering and then tell all their relations to do the same? Would mum and dad put preasure on their employers to move their data, mobile and voice services away from Telecom and to another provider? Could 800 Students ranging in age from 12 to 17 have a huge impact on a telephone company if said telephone company started to sue them... [1] > Schools are businesses and are charged business rates. Schools are in the business of teaching our children. Those children go on to become the future of New Zealand. Children are some of the biggest buyers of telecommunication products and services - least Telecom forget that. > Telecom also > cut them various deals to get online as economically as possible. Thanks for the info. Cheers DiG [1] Have a quick look at what's happening in the US where families have been sued by the music industry - suing a child does not make you look good in the press! -- Don Gould The technology exists to give every home 10mbits per second for $10 per month! Ask not what your telephone company should do for you... ...but what you can do for your broadband community! _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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Re: [nznog] Commerce Commission - bitstream etc.
by Ewen McNeill 27 Dec '03

27 Dec '03

In message <20031227043006.M87348(a)bvc.com.au>, "Don Gould - BVC" writes: On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 18:16:11 +1300, Simon Blake wrote >> <shrug> Stand for your council, and make a difference - if you could >> get 1% of the cash spent on Auckland roads spent on Auckland fibre >> to the home, you'd be awash in high speed data. > >Now that makes sense! How often to councils have elections? Every three years; the next set is next year (2004) IIRC. And for those that think Simon is joking, he's not. Even if you can't get any budget set aside for installing fibre, just ensuring that council ducts are put in each time the road is opened up for some other reason (eg, Wellington has some large holes in the CBD at present for upgrading the storm water system -- it'd be a shame if they were closed up again without ducts having been put in alongside), and some sensible approach for operators to gain access to those council ducts would make a huge difference. For that matter coordinating the installation of wiring/ducts/etc into the roads, so that the costs of digging is shared, would help -- especially if it were made a condition of any road works permits. And you could probably sell it to the public on reduced inconvenience (eg, road only dug up once in 6 months, rather than three times) alone. Some councils (eg, Wellington) have special coordination teams to help movies be made around the town; it seems to me that a similar amount of money spent on a few clueful people to coordinate shared ducts, shared digging, etc, would achieve similarly large rewards for relatively little money. Ewen

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