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a channelized E1 problem
by Dennis Su 25 Nov '99

25 Nov '99

Hi, We are having a mysterious problem with a channelized E1. I am wondering if you have any clue. Any input would be very much appreciated. We have been trying to commission a new 512K leased circuit but not successful. At the central end the NTU(CSU/DSU) is connected to a Synchronous serial port on AS5200 via X21. At the branch end the NTU is connected to a Balanced Channelized E1 port on 3620 via G.703 RJ-45. We have done loopback test and located the source of problem. It's between the 3620 and NTU at branch. We brought back the 120-Ohm RJ-45 cable and checked the cable OK. And Telecom has double-checked the circuit as well. It seems that the router is not talking to NTU at all. I have listed the router config and the output of show controller etc. The IOS is 11.3(3). -------------------------- controller E1 1/0 framing crc4 linecode hdb3 channel-group 0 timeslots 1-8 description Channelized E1 interface Serial1/0:0 ip address XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX 255.255.255.252 no ip mroute-cache bandwidth 512 priority-group 1 -------------------------------- #sho controllers e1 E1 1/0 is down. Applique type is Channelized E1 - balanced Description: Channelized E1 Transmitter is sending remote alarm. Receiver has loss of signal. Framing is CRC4, Line Code is HDB3, Clock Source is Line. Data in current interval (804 seconds elapsed): 0 Line Code Violations, 0 Path Code Violations 0 Slip Secs, 804 Fr Loss Secs, 0 Line Err Secs, 0 Degraded Mins 0 Errored Secs, 0 Bursty Err Secs, 0 Severely Err Secs, 804 Unavail Secs Total Data (last 24 hours) 1 Line Code Violations, 0 Path Code Violations, 0 Slip Secs, 86254 Fr Loss Secs, 1 Line Err Secs, 0 Degraded Mins, 1 Errored Secs, 0 Bursty Err Secs, 0 Severely Err Secs, 86254 Unavail Secs ---------------------------------------------------- Tauranga>sho int serial 1/0:0 Serial1/0:0 is down, line protocol is down Hardware is DSX1 Internet address is XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX/30 MTU 1500 bytes, BW 512 Kbit, DLY 20000 usec, rely 252/255, load 1/255 Encapsulation HDLC, loopback not set, keepalive set (10 sec) Last input 02:31:00, output 02:31:00, output hang never Last clearing of "show interface" counters 02:15:20 Input queue: 0/75/0 (size/max/drops); Total output drops: 0 Queueing strategy: priority-list 1 Output queue: high 0/20/0, medium 0/40/0, normal 0/60/0, low 0/80/0 5 minute input rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec 5 minute output rate 0 bits/sec, 0 packets/sec 0 packets input, 0 bytes, 0 no buffer Received 0 broadcasts, 0 runts, 0 giants, 0 throttles 0 input errors, 0 CRC, 0 frame, 0 overrun, 0 ignored, 0 abort 0 packets output, 0 bytes, 0 underruns 0 output errors, 0 collisions, 270 interface resets 0 output buffer failures, 0 output buffers swapped out 4 carrier transitions Timeslot(s) Used:1-8, Transmitter delay is 0 flags Regards, Dennis --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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None
by None 24 Nov '99

24 Nov '99

KAA05223 for <nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz>; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 10:37:40 +1300 Received: (from deanp(a)localhost) by slave.ascend.com.au (8.9.3/8.9.3/Debian/GNU) id IAA21800; Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:36:36 +1100 Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 08:36:35 +1100 From: Dean Pemberton <dp(a)lucent.com> To: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999] Message-ID: <19991125083635.F19605(a)slave.ascend.com.au> References: <EDFD920FC713D31186FF0008C7731C0E717310(a)WNANT21.moc.govt.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95.3i In-Reply-To: <EDFD920FC713D31186FF0008C7731C0E717310(a)WNANT21.moc.govt.nz>; = from Frank March on Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:22:09PM +1300 X-confirm-reading-to: "Dean Pemberton" <dp(a)lucent.com> X-files: Trust No One [I've cut down the distribution list bacause I don't subscribe to isocnz = and crossposting is bad M-kay] On Wed, Nov 24, 1999 at 02:22:09PM +1300, Frank March wrote: >=20 > I do have some problems with what Josh Bailey has to say. Who is paying = for > the Cisco in the pizza parlour? I doubt if it is a government initiative;= be > it Californian or Federal. There has been some interesting stuff put = out by > Paul Budde recently (see the most recent 'Friday Fryup' from Russell = Brown) > about the impact (or lack) of NZ's telecommunications competition policy = and > has some bearing on the comment about the cost of 64K circuits in NZ. > (Albeit, these comments are not really accepted in the place that I = work.) Who's paying for it is not the point that Josh is trying to make. The point is that it's being done. > Note that 64K circuits have never cost US$30K/m in NZ ... China had, and > still has, some way to do to catch up, frankly. >=20 Catch up to who? I have actually spent time in China both installing and maintaining their Internet backbone and I can say for sure that it's miles ahead of the infrastructure in place in NZ. They have fibre links to places so far-flung and disgusting I wouldn't = build a toilet there (although to be fair, neither did they =3D) ) In fact I can think of 3 other Asian countries that I have working relationships with who have latched onto the `Net' and sped ahead of NZ. = How many years has NZ had at this? I'm no historian but it's more than 15. = Some of these other countries have only been at this for 2-3 years and they are miles ahead. New Zealand can languish back and blame the small population or lack of government involvement or space aliens from mars. But at the end of the = day it's just whinging. Get on with it. > In commenting on the 'aisle' of Ciscos observed in Korea: it is perhaps > possible that Telecom NZ has such as facility, I do not know. I am not > aware of a serious lack of overseas data capacity for New Zealand at = present > (I would be very interested to know if there is in fact such a lack of > capacity). The future seems reasonably secure with the prospect of the > Southern Cross cable opening next year (increasing present overseas data > carrying capacity by a factor of 100, I believe). For what NZ'ers use it for sure. Why do you think other countries are installing OC-48 links everywhere? It's not just because they have more = users. In many cases it is because they have a different model to work from. In NZ you are encouraged to use the net with one hand and slapped on the = wrist with the other. It's frowned upon. ``You used over your free quota'' ``You are a high bandwidth user''=20 ``You downloaded too much'' ``Ohhh That high speed link is very expensive'' etc This sort of attitude stunts growth. =20 I have seen startup companies overseas doing things that would be = impossible with the telecommunications infrastructure in NZ, just because of this attitude. If you don't have the capacity then upgrade. =20 Hell I know a company not too far away from where I'm sitting that could provide a shit kicking infrastructure for NZ, just on the yearly profit of = a major NZ telco. I'm sure Roger knows one too. Contrast this attitude with the following examples Texas - ISDN is flatrate India - Government moving towards providing free ISDN installs and usage = to promote internet use. NZ - bleeding every last cent out of it's population for even adaquate = access. >=20 > There are serious bandwidth users in NZ. While I do not personally wish = to > carry any particular flame for Telecom NZ, I do know that Peter Jackson = has > had very good co-operation in having his on and off shore needs for very > large bandwidth met by them (no doubt at a cost!). >=20 See Above. But I'm sure that TNZ would be more than happy to lease me a pair of dark = fibre if I were on a movie making budget. Thats not really the point is it? = The point is not really how much bandwidth there is it's how accessable this bandwidth is to the everyday person. > The Internet in NZ has (& is) expanded (ing) very quickly. NZ has one = of > the top 10 Internet penetrations in the world (ahead of Australia, all = of > middle and southern Europe and miles ahead of Korea and the rest of = Asia). Sometimes penetration is not a very accurate measure of things. Imagine a small island in the South Pacific which has a population of ten people. Six of them have Internet access. WOW thats 60%, best we call = this country the most developed on the planet due to it's Internet penetration. Just because a third of the country has cellphones doesn't mean that NZ is = on the leading edge of cellular technology (Telecom is still dragging itself = out of the analog world for heavens sake). Similarly, just because a large percentage of the population has Internet access does not mean that they are doing anything greater with it than = reading email and looking at the web. How many houses do you think host their own content in NZ? How many stream video? How many on sell value added net services? How many (outside Wellington) have all their services (Phone, net, TV) = provided on a single digital feed? These are the sort of stats that tell the real story. I'd be interested in a statistic that measured how much bandwidth the = average person in a country had access to for the average wage. MAN! NZ wouldn't = be in the top ten of that one. > I am also very > concerned about the apparent denigration of the need to develop and = focus on > post industrial economic models for NZ (ie the knowledge economy) by = both > politicians and media commentators in the current election campaign. > Because the public doesn't care. This goes back to what Josh was saying = about the culture being different in NZ. A Political party who stood up and = said that they would give free Internet to every home in NZ would only be = talking to a fringe factor slightly larger than if their stance was to abolish the = student loan debt. Huge chunks of the public really don't give a toss. Take Coronation Street off the air for a couple of days on the other = hand... =20 > But, Josh, if you really have a concern it has to be better directed and > expressed than the comments you make in your post. I don't think he cares really. He just had something to say. I don't = think he's running for office, although anyone can be a Congressman these days = =3D). Don't get me wrong in all this. I'm proud to be a Kiwi. I promote NZ in = a favourable way everywhere I go in the world. I just think that in this = case they are lagging behind. Dean --=20 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Dean Pemberton - dp(a)lucent.com Escalation Engineer with the Company Formally Known As Ascend Lucent Technologies - Lvl 38, 55 Collins St, Melbourne 3000, Australia ----------------------------------------------------------------------- =20 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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NZNOG Administrator's Note
by Donald Neal 24 Nov '99

24 Nov '99

People, This seems an appropriate time to repost this list's AUP. You will note that crosspostings and political or philosophical discussion are discouraged. NZNOG Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy The NZNOG mailing list exists to provide a forum for the exchange of technical information and the discussion of implementation issues that require cooperation among New Zealand network service providers. In order to continue to provide a useful forum for discussion of relevant technical issues, users of the list are asked to respect the following guidelines. 1. Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues. 2. Discussion related to meetings of network service providers is appropriate. 3. Discussion unrelated to these topics is not appropriate. 4. Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged. 5. Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack of respect for other participants are unacceptable. 6. Blatant product or service marketing is unacceptable. 7. Postings of a political, philosophical or legal nature are discouraged. 8. Postings to the list should be in ASCII or MIME encoded as text/plain. Attachments should not be sent to the list. To present a document, a suitable URL may be referred to. For documents of general interest, the use of proprietary file formats is discouraged. 9. Breaches of list etiquette should be dealt with privately with the offending list user, and should not result in complaints being sent to the list. Non-Working Address The address root(a)meridian.net.nz has been removed from the list. The owner of that address is free, of course, to re-subscribe using another address. - Donald Neal -- Donald Neal | HTTP is everywhere. It could not be so Service Platforms | pervasive without being good. Centralised Maintain and Support | Therefore, HTTP is good. Telecom NZ Ltd | - RFC2324 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999]
by Donald Neal 24 Nov '99

24 Nov '99

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RE: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999]
by Frank March 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

Comments on recent posts from Roger De Salis and Josh Bailey While I have no real personal disagreement with the sentiment Roger's post expresses, I do have some concerns about the way that the government might be involved in such a venture; I would personally prefer to see government get its own information policies in order (ie, developing a comprehensive vision for e-government in NZ) rather than plunging straight into building an infrastructure that might be done better by others. I do have some problems with what Josh Bailey has to say. Who is paying for the Cisco in the pizza parlour? I doubt if it is a government initiative; be it Californian or Federal. There has been some interesting stuff put out by Paul Budde recently (see the most recent 'Friday Fryup' from Russell Brown) about the impact (or lack) of NZ's telecommunications competition policy and has some bearing on the comment about the cost of 64K circuits in NZ. (Albeit, these comments are not really accepted in the place that I work.) Note that 64K circuits have never cost US$30K/m in NZ ... China had, and still has, some way to do to catch up, frankly. In commenting on the 'aisle' of Ciscos observed in Korea: it is perhaps possible that Telecom NZ has such as facility, I do not know. I am not aware of a serious lack of overseas data capacity for New Zealand at present (I would be very interested to know if there is in fact such a lack of capacity). The future seems reasonably secure with the prospect of the Southern Cross cable opening next year (increasing present overseas data carrying capacity by a factor of 100, I believe). There are serious bandwidth users in NZ. While I do not personally wish to carry any particular flame for Telecom NZ, I do know that Peter Jackson has had very good co-operation in having his on and off shore needs for very large bandwidth met by them (no doubt at a cost!). I personally believe there are concerns about local loop issues in NZ that need addressing but I have no concerns about national or international infrastructure where there is abundant competitive pressure and opportunity. The Internet in NZ has (& is) expanded (ing) very quickly. NZ has one of the top 10 Internet penetrations in the world (ahead of Australia, all of middle and southern Europe and miles ahead of Korea and the rest of Asia). There are issues about e-commerce development in NZ, certainly, if the Ernst Young report from early this year is to be believed. I am also very concerned about the apparent denigration of the need to develop and focus on post industrial economic models for NZ (ie the knowledge economy) by both politicians and media commentators in the current election campaign. But, Josh, if you really have a concern it has to be better directed and expressed than the comments you make in your post. Frank March > -----Original Message----- > From: Josh Bailey [SMTP:josh(a)ascend.com] > Sent: Wednesday, 24 November 1999 13:09 > To: Roger De Salis > Cc: isocnz-members(a)isocnz.org.nz; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999] > > > On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Roger De Salis wrote: > > > This country needs to build a very high speed, low cost communications > > network with Universal access in the same way that it needed to build > > railways in the last century, and roads and airports in this. > > It's becoming increasingly embarrassing being a New Zealander > internationally - just last week I tripped over a Cisco 675 being > installed in a pizza parlour on Telegraph, right next to Berkeley > university - even the homeless here "browse the 'Net." In South-East China > it used to cost $30K/US a month for a 64K circuit and you were lucky if it > stood up for a few days at a time - now there are bright shiny new NAPs > built on literally dirt floors that put New Zealand's to shame. I asked > Korea Telecom's 'Net operations manager once where his overseas feeds came > in, and he nonchanantly indicated an *aisle* of 10-15 Cisco 7513s > allocated just for that purpose. > > What other way can I say it? I turn my back on my country! > > New Zealand isn't interested in playing. Reliable and capacious Internet > access is two steps forward, one step back with a wobble for good measure > between steps. Culturally New Zealanders do not take the Internet > seriously. It is very clear from the outside looking in that NZ > politicians reflect the attitudes of their majorities quite accurately. > > In summarising and following on from your point Roger - it seems the only > way to get Powers To Be to listen is to walk out. Like other people of my > generation/age group/ambitions/industry, I can't wait for my country to > catch up with my future. > > -- > Josh Bailey (mailto:joshbailey(a)lucent.com) > lucent->ins->software->alameda[CA] > > --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RE: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999]
by Warwick Glendenning 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

but at least we don't have nukes... -----Original Message----- From: Josh Bailey [mailto:josh(a)ascend.com] Sent: Wednesday, 24 November 1999 13:09 To: Roger De Salis Cc: isocnz-members(a)isocnz.org.nz; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: Re: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999] On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Roger De Salis wrote: > This country needs to build a very high speed, low cost communications > network with Universal access in the same way that it needed to build > railways in the last century, and roads and airports in this. It's becoming increasingly embarrassing being a New Zealander internationally - just last week I tripped over a Cisco 675 being installed in a pizza parlour on Telegraph, right next to Berkeley university - even the homeless here "browse the 'Net." In South-East China it used to cost $30K/US a month for a 64K circuit and you were lucky if it stood up for a few days at a time - now there are bright shiny new NAPs built on literally dirt floors that put New Zealand's to shame. I asked Korea Telecom's 'Net operations manager once where his overseas feeds came in, and he nonchanantly indicated an *aisle* of 10-15 Cisco 7513s allocated just for that purpose. What other way can I say it? I turn my back on my country! New Zealand isn't interested in playing. Reliable and capacious Internet access is two steps forward, one step back with a wobble for good measure between steps. Culturally New Zealanders do not take the Internet seriously. It is very clear from the outside looking in that NZ politicians reflect the attitudes of their majorities quite accurately. In summarising and following on from your point Roger - it seems the only way to get Powers To Be to listen is to walk out. Like other people of my generation/age group/ambitions/industry, I can't wait for my country to catch up with my future. -- Josh Bailey (mailto:joshbailey(a)lucent.com) lucent->ins->software->alameda[CA] --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RE: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999]
by Warwick Glendenning 23 Nov '99

23 Nov '99

Seriously I think your message was good wake up call to us involved in networking in NZ. -----Original Message----- From: Josh Bailey [mailto:josh(a)ascend.com] Sent: Wednesday, 24 November 1999 13:34 To: Warwick Glendenning Cc: Roger De Salis; isocnz-members(a)isocnz.org.nz; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz Subject: RE: [Fwd: Fwd: FCC Approves Line Sharing 11/18/1999] On Wed, 24 Nov 1999, Warwick Glendenning wrote: > but at least we don't have nukes... Couldn't tell if there was a smiley there. :-) Nonetheless, we have have the Internet, nukes, and all the rest here to stay. I don't think ignoring any of them/it is the world's greatest strategy for survival.... -- Josh Bailey (mailto:joshbailey(a)lucent.com) lucent->ins->software->alameda[CA] --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Video Broadcast
by Richard Naylor 16 Nov '99

16 Nov '99

We have been advised by the Reserve Bank that the Governor, Don Brash will make a major announcement on Wednesday 17 Nov at 0900. They will be offering this via a streaming server at RBNZ and are concerned about the impact of possible traffic increases on the Internet. Their Corporate Affairs people have estimated that something between 200 and 800 clients MAY view it. Each client will be approx 28kbps stream. Routers on CityLink/WIX may struggle under the load. CityLink will install a temporary 100mbps link for the occassion, along with a WIX router, so that traffic gets passed directly to as many clients as possible. Is any WIX ISP interested in offering international traffic (and IP numbers to go behind the router) for the occassion ? Richard richard.naylor(a)citylink.co.nz This mail message contains information that is confidential and which may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use, distribute or copy this message. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and erase this mail. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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0867 Access to Internet
by Nevil Brownlee 11 Nov '99

11 Nov '99

Dear Mr Williamson: This week I have been in America at an Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) meeting. IETF meetings bring together around 2000 technical people who are working together to develop and improve the global Internet. Among them are people from most of the world's telecommunications companies, which gives me a very good chance to talk to them and find out how telephone services work in other countries. I have taken the opportunity to canvas opinion on Telecom New Zealand's 0867 service for Internet access from the Public Switched Telephone Network (PSTN). Everyone has responded with open-mouthed astonishment to the idea that a single company could actually do this, and remark that "it wouldn't be legal in any other country." The effect of this service is to force ISP's to use Telecom to provide PSTN connection services for them, or to use another provider with whom Telecom has an '0867 agreement.' I fail to understand why you, as Minister of Communications, are prepared to allow any one company to exercise such a high degree of control over public access to the Internet in New Zealand. Would you please let me know how you intend to correct this anomoly if you continue to be New Zealand's Minister of Telecommunications? Yours sincerely, (Dr.) Nevil Brownlee +---------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Nevil Brownlee Director, Technology Development | | Phone: +64 9 373 7599 x8941 ITSS, The University of Auckland | | FAX: +64 9 373 7021 Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand | +---------------------------------------------------------------------L --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: Wee query about clear :)
by Arron Scott 11 Nov '99

11 Nov '99

Joe's point about Merit is where this get's interesting to me. Obviously, WIX and APE should move to a Arbitrated network in my opinion, if you are providing the route server, then you provide the only rational filtering point. On the issue of running the database though, this data may well reach beyond the realm of WIX and APE and their customers, for instance NetGate could use it to Clear directly etc. Wouldn't it be nice if we could trust that ISOCNZ and DomaiNZ could provide a useful cost-effective and more regionally acurate alternative to Merit !!! Well, I'm allowed to dream aren't I !!! Arron Scott Telecom NZ On Wed, 10 Nov 1999, Joe Abley wrote: > On Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 10:30:59AM +1300, Simon Blake wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, Jamie Clark wrote: > > > > > WIX has obviously worked well without filters so far. > > > > It comes and goes. Generally, it works fine, and that's probably a > > reflection on the stability of the NZ net, or at least, the bit that peers > > in wellington. In general, it's changes (additions of new peers) that can > > cause temporary hiccups (Actrix advertising 4000 prefixes yesterday being > > a good example). > > Originally, there was only one peering point, in Hamilton. It used > OSPF, which you couldn't filter, but that was generally ok because it > was more important to connect people to the exchange quickly and > easily than it was to worry about filtering problems. When your > only route out is through the exchange, you don't necessarily need > to worry much about filtering. > > Now there are three exchanges as well as private peering links in > the network, some operators have a choice of as many as six routes > for their domestic traffic to take as it leaves their network. This > requires some traffic engineering that previously was not particularly > necessary. > > The proliferation of domestic peering also means that finger trouble > at one particular operator now has (in some cases) six times as many > ways to cause problems for other operators, in a manner that is quite > possibly six times harder to debug. > > All this adds up to the fact that when Angry Customer calls up to > find out why his Angry Customer can't talk to someone else's Angry > Customer, you need some idea of how things _ought_ to look before > you can figure out what has broken. > > Publishing route policy makes that easier. It also makes it easier > to filter with some confidence, which is also a good thing. If > Atrix release 4000 prefixes into the network, and you pick them > up and trust them, then it's your fault for not filtering. Don't > yell at Actrix :) > > The tools required to set up and run an RPSL registry are all freely > available, but it _is_ something that needs to be set up professionally > and run as such, in my opinion. A flaky database which contains out-of- > date information because people can't update it is probably worse than > no database at all. > > Merit now charge US$200/year to keep records in their database. In the > absense of a similar facility elsewhere (e.g. in NZ) that is as stable > as Merit's, I would say that was good value for money. > > > My policy at the moment tends to vary, depending on the customer. If the > > peer is an ISP (ie, if they have their own ASN), then I assume they know > > what they're doing, > > You missed out the ":)" > > > and I don't filter incoming or outgoing updates, > > unless requested by the peer. > > Warning! Warning! > > > Joe > --------- > To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > where the body of your message reads: > unsubscribe nznog > --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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