Interim programme below:-
++++++++++++++++++++++++
1998
FACE TO FACE
"THE INTERNET - TOOL OR TOY?"
THE ISSUES:
* Pornography and Other Nasties: Are the ISPs
Liable?
* Internet Governance: The Future of the DNS
* Who Owns Netgate? Portability of IP Addresses
* Ethics on the Internet
* Does the Internet Need Government?
* ThinkQuest: Announcing ISOCNZ as National
Partner for ThinkQuest International
Followed by:
* ISOCNZ Annual General Meeting
WHERE: (e)Vision House, 282 Wakefield Street,
Wellington
AND: Live Broadcast** to the Altos Bar, Sky
City, Auckland
WHEN: Friday November 20 1998
8:30-3:30 - followed by AGM in Wellington
at 4:30pm
WHO: Anyone with an interest in the Hottest
Issues on the Internet in 1998
ENTRY: Members: $80.00 + GST
Non-Members: $130 + GST
** Conference Only
regards
Peter Mott
Chief Enthusiast
2Day Internet Limited
http://www.2day.net.nz
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This list is an excellent idea. Top marks to the folk who kicked it off
>Three weeks ago Joe Abley suggested to this list an approach to the
>elimination of addresses issued in small units by NZGate. His proposal is
>still available at
>http://www.patho.gen.nz/~jabley/nznumber.txt .
Are list participants aware ISOCNZ is planning a forum discussion
on this topic in Wellington on Nov 20 prior to their AGM?
Sounds like an opportunity for industry players to get together and share
views.
regards
Peter Mott
Chief Enthusiast
2Day Internet Limited
http://www.2day.net.nz
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Peter Mott wrote today:
> Are list participants aware ISOCNZ is planning a forum discussion
> on this topic in Wellington on Nov 20 prior to their AGM?
This too is an excellent idea, is there a time set and do we need to
register or anything?
Robert Gray
Clearview Communications, Auckland New Zealand
bobg(a)clearview.co.nz <mailto:bobg(a)clearfield.co.nz>
http://www.clearview.co.nz/ <http://www.clearview.co.nz/>
Phone DDI +64 9 529 5704, Fax +64 9 529 5702, Mob +64 25 971 860
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>As someone who is almost certainly more familiar with ISOCNZ than I am,
>what are your views? How do you see ISOCNZ participating or adding value
>to this issue?
My reply may be off topic, but you did ask the question, so here goes ...
Today, I would say ISOCNZ is not in a very good position to add value to
this issue or any other industry specific issue which may come along.
I say that because, whilst ISOCNZ has the best intentions in the world, it
has very view internet providers actively participating, and has a council
which addresses issues and makes decisions on things they consider important
to them at the time.
It is therefore unlikely they can represent our industry particularly well
for the time being.
The move to run a forum on issues such as censorhip, ip addressing, and
domain registration is a clear signal they want industry to participate. We
need to wake up and smell the coffee.
I think the Internet provider industry needs to be able to speak with a
single voice. We can can achieve this by:-
a) seizing the opportunity to grow ISOCNZ by joining up real quick or
b) forming our own industry association sooner rather than later
Whether NZNOG is a part of, or drives this initiative is a question for us
all, but I suggest that action is required.
Whilst the IP addressing issue can be seen in the context of engineering
stuff for industry players to sort and agree on, there are things happening
in much higher places than most of us care to live, the outcome of which may
be industry loosing some ability to manage itself.
The question of IP management is as vexed an argument as domain name
management, except the stakes are much higher. As things evolve, the
respect held for RFC's will erode, and so we will need to look for other
ways to ensure issues which concern participants of this list can be
addressed.
regards
Peter Mott
Chief Enthusiast
2Day Internet Limited
http://www.2day.net.nz
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This issue is of fundamental interest to anyone concerned with the
commercial integrity and long term stability of the Internet in New Zealand.
Therefore it a matter of concern to me in the policy capacity recognised in
the sig below.
Wearing a different hat, my association with ISOCNZ, there is a need for
someone *representative of the Internet community as a whole* to take on
responsibility for ensuring that the Internet is a stable and reliable
platform for e commerce. Although ISOCNZ is not there yet, it does have
that potential (see for example, David Farrar's vision statement
http://www.dpf.ac.nz/isocnz/vision.htm; which I by and large support)
Ideologically and practically, there is strong disinterest on the part of
the Government to regulate any matter relating to the Internet. But I have
been lead to believe that the IP address structure is of sufficient concern
that, if there was any suggestion that the NZgate 'share' of the IP address
space was at risk of monopoly 'capture' by any group which was not
representative of the interests of the Internet users as a whole, the
Government might take another look.
I will be developing some of this at the Face to Face meeting on 20
November.
So my comment on the question raised by Joe's most recent post, reproduced
in full below is: who else, other than ISOCNZ? And if this is not 'value
add' what would be of greater importance? This is also not a loaded
question. :)
Of course, we are looking at an operational issue. Although, in fact, we
are looking at policy underlying an operational issue; that is governance,
actually.
Frank March
Specialist Advisor
IT Policy Group, Ministry of Commerce, PO Box 1473, Wellington, New Zealand
Telephone: +64 4 474 2908; Fax: +64 4 473 7010
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Abley [SMTP:jabley(a)clear.co.nz]
> Sent: Friday, October 30, 1998 12:32 PM
> To: 2Day Chief Enthusiast; Donald Neal; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz
> Subject: Re: NZGate Addressing Within New Zealand
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 1998 at 12:01:17PM +1300, 2Day Chief Enthusiast wrote:
> > This list is an excellent idea. Top marks to the folk who kicked it off
> >
> > >Three weeks ago Joe Abley suggested to this list an approach to the
> > >elimination of addresses issued in small units by NZGate. His proposal
> is
> > >still available at
> > >http://www.patho.gen.nz/~jabley/nznumber.txt .
> >
> > Are list participants aware ISOCNZ is planning a forum discussion
> > on this topic in Wellington on Nov 20 prior to their AGM?
> >
> > Sounds like an opportunity for industry players to get together and
> share
> > views.
>
> Although there are commercial issues surrounding the use of NZGATE numbers
> in networks today, the underlying motive for reform is the health of the
> network - specifically, the advertisement of long-prefix routes. This
> aspect
> is clearly an operational issue, rather than one of governance -- and has
> its roots in _global_ operational policy, rather than that of just NZ.
>
> As someone who is almost certainly more familiar with ISOCNZ than I am,
> what are your views? How do you see ISOCNZ participating or adding value
> to this issue?
>
> This isn't a loaded question :) I'm just interested.
>
>
> Joe
>
> --
> Joe Abley <jabley(a)clear.co.nz> Tel +64 9 912-4065, Fax +64 9 912-5008
> Network Architect, CLEAR Net http://www.clear.net.nz/
>
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Three weeks ago Joe Abley suggested to this list an approach to the
elimination of addresses issued in small units by NZGate. His proposal is
still available at
http://www.patho.gen.nz/~jabley/nznumber.txt .
Joe, do you have any plans to revise your proposal in the light of
feedback you've seen since?
- Donald Neal
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Hi all,
This is off-topic, although (I hope) of sufficient interest that I don't
get engulfed in anti-spam hate-mail :)
A list has been in operation for some time now, hosted by the University
of Waikato, intended as an open forum for the discussion of operational
issues between network operators in New Zealand.
The list's membership is not (currently) completely representative of all
network operators in NZ, but currently has subscribers from (in the order
that people have subscribed):
CLEAR, NetGate, Netlink, ICONZ, Waikato University, Telecom NZ,
Iprolink, National Library, Xtra, CityLink, OnTheNet, Paradise.Net,
Saturn, Voyager, Ascend, Cisco, IHUG, Plain Communications,
Tasman Solutions, Clearview, Globe Net, the Ministry of Commerce,
Internet Exchange and Victoria University of Wellington.
The list has proved useful for announcing transient network issues affecting
other providers, arranging peering between networks, and more recently for
discussions relating to IP numbering in New Zealand.
This note is really just an attempt to widen the membership of the list, in
case there are network operators who are not aware of it.
A brief description of the list follows, courtesy of Donald Neal of Telecom
NZ. Thank you for your time! Now - back to the main feature.
---------
>From: Donald Neal <D1NC(a)telecom.co.nz>
Subject: The New Zealand Network Operators' Group
Date: Wed, 28 Oct 1998 10:10:27 +1200
The New Zealand Network Operators' Group
The New Zealand Network Operators' Group (NZNOG) has neither a
king, a president nor a formal membership. At present it consists of the
subscribers to this mailing list, which anyone is free to join.
The NZNOG mailing list is provided through a server at The University of
Waikato, and is administered by an employee of Telecom NZ Ltd. Neither
of these organisations (nor the administrator) is responsible for its
content.
NZNOG Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy
The NZNOG mailing list exists to provide a forum for the exchange of
technical information and the discussion of implementation issues that
require cooperation among New Zealand network service providers. In
order to continue to provide a useful forum for discussion of relevant
technical issues, users of the list are asked to respect the following
guidelines.
1.Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues.
2. Discussion related to meetings of network service providers is
appropriate.
3. Discussion unrelated to these topics is not appropriate.
3.Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged.
4.Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack
of respect for other participants are unacceptable.
5.Blatant product or service marketing is unacceptable.
6.Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are discouraged.
Mailing List Archives
A full archive is available at http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/nznog/
To search the archive, see http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/search.html
(and remember to select nznog).
Digest Mailing List
If you don't wish to receive postings as they are sent, you can instead
subscribe to the nznog-digest mailiing list, on which all postings are sent
out in a single "digest" every couple of days.
Other Activities
NZNOG does not at present have other regular activities than this mailing
list, though some Auckland subscribers have been known to arrange
meetings over beer.
Donald Neal
NZNOG Mailing List Owner/Administrator/Muggins
---------
--
Joe Abley <jabley(a)clear.co.nz> Tel +64 9 912-4065, Fax +64 9 912-5008
Network Architect, CLEAR Net http://www.clear.net.nz/
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The New Zealand Network Operators' Group
The New Zealand Network Operators' Group (NZNOG) has neither a
king, a president nor a formal membership. At present it consists of the
subscribers to this mailing list, which anyone is free to join.
The NZNOG mailing list is provided through a server at The University of
Waikato, and is administered by an employee of Telecom NZ Ltd. Neither
of these organisations (nor the administrator) is responsible for its
content.
NZNOG Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy
The NZNOG mailing list exists to provide a forum for the exchange of
technical information and the discussion of implementation issues that
require cooperation among New Zealand network service providers. In
order to continue to provide a useful forum for discussion of relevant
technical issues, users of the list are asked to respect the following
guidelines.
1.Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues.
2. Discussion related to meetings of network service providers is
appropriate.
3. Discussion unrelated to these topics is not appropriate.
3.Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged.
4.Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack
of respect for other participants are unacceptable.
5.Blatant product or service marketing is unacceptable.
6.Postings of political, philosophical, and legal nature are discouraged.
Mailing List Archives
A full archive is available at http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/nznog/
To search the archive, see http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/search.html
(and remember to select nznog).
Digest Mailing List
If you don't wish to receive postings as they are sent, you can instead
subscribe to the nznog-digest mailiing list, on which all postings are sent
out in a single "digest" every couple of days.
Other Activities
NZNOG does not at present have other regular activities than this mailing
list, though some Auckland subscribers have been known to arrange
meetings over beer.
Donald Neal
NZNOG Mailing List Owner/Administrator/Muggins
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Arron/Sandy,
You people seem to be advertising an awful lot of crap to us over NZIX;
the following is an example (209.155.82.18 is ftp.cdrom.com)
ba1.acld#ping ftp.cdrom.com
Type escape sequence to abort.
Sending 5, 100-byte ICMP Echos to 209.155.82.18, timeout is 2 seconds:
.!!..
Success rate is 40 percent (2/5), round-trip min/avg/max = 1108/1388/1668 ms
ba1.acld#show ip route 209.155.82.18
Routing entry for 209.155.82.18/32
Known via "ospf 1", distance 110, metric 5000
Tag 9999, type extern 2, forward metric 100
Redistributing via ospf 1
Last update from 203.97.1.70 on ATM5/0.1, 1d00h ago
Routing Descriptor Blocks:
* 203.97.1.70, from 203.97.1.82, 1d00h ago, via ATM5/0.1
Route metric is 5000, traffic share count is 1
ba1.acld#traceroute 209.155.82.18
Type escape sequence to abort.
Tracing the route to wcarchive.cdrom.com (209.155.82.18)
1 ba1-ser0-15.hmtn.clix.net.nz (203.97.1.70) 32 msec 12 msec 16 msec
2 ngthn1-b1.nzix.waikato.ac.nz (140.200.128.9) [AS 681] 136 msec 20 msec 28 msec
3 s6-1.akcr1.netgate.net.nz (202.37.245.125) [AS 4648] 36 msec 32 msec 28 msec
4 f0-0.akbr1.netgate.net.nz (202.37.245.58) [AS 4648] 2144 msec * *
5
This seems bad!
Anybody else seeing this?
I will be blocking OSPF updates from NetGate over NZIX very shortly...
Any feedback or confirmation from anybody else would be most welcome.
Joe
--
Joe Abley <jabley(a)clear.co.nz> Tel +64 9 912-4065, Fax +64 9 912-5008
Network Architect, CLEAR Net http://www.clear.net.nz/
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Well, thats what you get for working at 10:30pm on a public holiday !.. hold
on, so am I..... damn....
-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Abley <jabley(a)clear.co.nz>
To: arrons(a)netgate.net.nz <arrons(a)netgate.net.nz>; s.davidson(a)netgate.net.nz
<s.davidson(a)netgate.net.nz>
Cc: nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz <nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz>
Date: Monday, 26 October 1998 22:43
Subject: Re: Arrgh! READ ME
>Well...
>
>I know that I'm talking to myself here :) but it seems like I overreacted
>somewhat; on closer examination, the only erroneous route I can find from
>140.200.128.9 is for 209.155.82.18/32. I can't find anything else that
>shouldn't be there.
>
>It was just the first thing I tried, and so I assumed the worst :(
>
>209.155/16 is definitely operated by CRL though, and so the host route
>for 209.155.82.18/32 _is_ bogus.
>
>Many apologies for casting aspersions on NetGate's OSPF speaker!
>
>Yours in drugs,
>
>
>Joe
>
>--
>Joe Abley <jabley(a)clear.co.nz> Tel +64 9 912-4065, Fax +64 9 912-5008
>Network Architect, CLEAR Net http://www.clear.net.nz/
>
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