If people are worried about their record of how long they have had a particular range assigned to them you can get archives or delagation from here; ftp://ftp.apnic.net/pub/apnic/stats/apnic/ The archive go back about 2 years and contain the range, ASN and when it was first allocated (I saw a couple in there that were from 1996). So that might go some way to proving the lineage of a range. I hope some of that might be useful. Daniel Many people would sooner die than think. In fact they do. Bertrand Russell --Quoted in Antony Flew's Thinking About Thinking Simon Lyall wrote:

About a month ago I noticed the whois data for one of my networks had vanished and called APNIC, they said it was still there (although how I access it I don't know anymore) but that due to the new confidentially policy only Telecom would show up in the whois.

I sent in a little request to have it made public but they havn't been. I might have sent it to the wrong address however. Has anyone had their whois info changed back to public okay?

Looking at APNIC's fees it looks like the /16s would cost Telecom around $US 1000 each per year to APNIC.

On the other hand I don't think it is realistic to expect a small company with a /24, /23 or /22 to be expected to join APNIC and pay $US 2000 plus $US 1250 per year. These days it's simple to multihome for less than $NZ 1000 per month so APNIC membership could consume 10-20% of a company's Internet bill.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Andy Linton wrote:

...

About a month ago Sid Jones and I had a conversation about one of his customers who has a /23 in this space. We raised the issue with APNIC and I attach the thread.

There's a clear implication in the mail below that APNIC expect Telecom NZ to cooperate on this issue which seems to be at odds with their behaviour over 202.49.252.0 - 202.49.255.255 as David Robb has noted.

I suggest a number of things here:

1) each ISP who routes portions of this block should encourage their customers to write to APNIC requesting that as this block was allocated via the University of Waikato which was operating as a proto NZNIC at the time then this address space should be deemed to be provider independent space which should be administered as other 'swamp' space.

For example, here's a record that's recently been obscured as part of this exercise:

inetnum: 202.36.137.0 - 202.36.137.255

...

netname: NZMFE descr: Ministry for the Environment descr: P.O. Box 10-362 descr: The Terrace descr: Wellington country: NZ admin-c: MB22-AP tech-c: MB22-AP notify: dbmon(a)apnic.net mnt-by: APNIC-HM changed: hostmaster(a)apnic.net 19931217 status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE changed: hm-changed(a)apnic.net 20031020 source: APNIC

This is clearly PORTABLE space and makes no reference to Telecom NZ and the admin-c and tech-c details were updated just over a year ago. Note that this address was allocated in 1993 long before Netway (a Telecom NZ subsidiary) entered the picture at all. Why are APNIC changing the goal posts?

2) the customers should also write to Telecom NZ making clear that their portion of address space was not issued to Telecom NZ but to them by the University of Waikato (acting as a proto NZNIC) and that they want Telecom to relinquish control of this space back to APNIC.

3) I'd encourage APNIC to look again at this.

4) user groups such as InternetNZ, TUANZ etc need to get across this issue and raise it with Telecom NZ

5) I'd suggest the press get their teeth into this but that's probably not necessary as there's no story here. (:-)

andy

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html (fwd)] (fwd) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:20:59 +1000 (EST) From: John Tran To: asjl(a)citylink.co.nz CC: Anne Lord , Elly Tawhai , Tim Jones

Hi Andy,

We have searched all our historical emails and records regarding NZNIC as well as all information relating to 202.27.0.0/16. Here is the summary of what we found.

Before 1995, the following address ranges had been allocated by APNIC to the University of Waikato, which operated as a gateway for New Zealand, under the name NZGATE:

202.27/16 202.37/16 202.36/16 202.49/16 202.50/16

These ranges were allocated on the basis that NZGATE would make further allocations to their customers.

In 1995, Netway Commnication Ltd took over the international gateway function from the University of Waikato and the IP addresses were transfered with APNIC's approval. Netway continued contracting University of Waikato staff to allocate IP addresses on Netway's behalf to its customers.

NZNIC was then established by the University of Waikato to obtain provider independent addresses for other organisations like Clear Communication and Netlink. Netway was then transfered to NZtelecom in late 1997, along with the corresponding address space.

In November 1998, because of the confusion in the Internet community in New Zealand about whether the address space that they obtained from the University of Waikato was portable or not, APNIC and Brett Telfer (Netgate) re-confirmed that the above ranges would be best managed by NZTelecom. Since then, these address ranges are used by APNIC to determine the membership tier paid by NZtelecom as outlined in:

http://www.apnic.net/member/feesinfo.html

NZTelcom is able to assist any organisation holding address space with reverse DNS and is able to change the status of DB object to public, if so requested.

I hope the above information is useful for you. If you need additional information please contact us. If you would prefer to discuss this further, we can arrange a telephone conference.

Regards

Son

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:39:44 +1000 (EST) From: Anne Lord To: Andy Linton Cc: son(a)apnic.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html (fwd)]

hi Andy,

Thanks for your email. I'm no longer involved in handling resource requests, but I have copied Son Tran, the manager of the Member Services department, on this email, who is and who will be able to help you.

It certainly looks like this warrants a much closer examination of the records and history and I am sure Son would be happy to talk to you.

Best wishes, Anne cc: Son

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Andy Linton wrote:

...

Anne,

I've had a conversation today with Sid Jones about this mail. These blocks were allocated to the University of Waikato which operated as the proto NZNIC in the early nineties prior to APNIC handling this work.

Aaron Scott who is listed in the changed record below went to work for Telecom NZ when they took over handling the exchange point at Waikato. There are a significant number of NZ government departments and other "blue chip" identities listed in the records who don't use Telecom NZ as their ISP and who believe that they have portable space. Some of them have /21 allocations and perhaps even /20 allocations.

This whole set of blocks really should be considered as swamp space.

I will be raising this issue on the NZNOG mailing list suggesting that those entities who have had these blocks allocated to then for periods in the order of 10 years or more should contact you asking for clarification of their position.

I think it would be good if APNIC took a good look at the allocations within these ranges and considered what's going on here.

Happy to discuss - +64 4 910 5654

andy

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:44:30 +1000 From: gpan via RT To: sid(a)tsnz.net Subject: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html

Dear Sid,

Thank you for your enquiry. It was proposed at the APNIC 16 meeting in 2003 that customer assignments (and sub-allocation records) need no longer be publicly accessible via normal 'whois' queries to the APNIC Whois Database.

Customer registration records must still be registered within the APNIC Whois Database, in order to document address utilisation, however a new 'public' database attribute has been created to allow these records to be excluded from public whois query results. This is why you are unable to receive any result when querying the APNIC Whois Database about this particular /23. You will get the result as:

inetnum: 202.27.0.0 - 202.27.255.255 netname: NZGATE-NZ descr: NZ Gate National Service Provider descr: Component of University Of Waikato descr: New Zeland country: NZ admin-c: DBK1-AP tech-c: KS61-AP remarks: service provider notify: dbmon(a)apnic.net mnt-by: APNIC-HM mnt-lower: NZTELECOM changed: ARRON(a)WAIKATO.AC.NZ 19950612 changed: hostmaster(a)apnic.net 20020208 changed: hm-change(a)apnic.net 20020621 status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE source: APNIC

Information contained within the historical records outlines that NZTelecom has full authority over the following blocks:

202.27.0.0/16 202.36.0.0/16 202.37.0.0/16 202.49.0.0/16 202.50.0.0/16 203.96.0.0/17

Information from those records also outline that the assignments from these ranges are non portable.

202.27.xx.0/23

This address space is from a block allocated, by APNIC to NZTelecom. This means that all assignments made from this block are non portable.

If your customer would like to see or change their records in APNIC whois database, please advise them to contact NZ Telecom.

Best Regards, Guangliang

____________________________________________________________________ Guangliang Pan, Internet Resource Analyst Asia Pacific Network Information Centre phone: +61 7 3858 3100 http://www.apnic.net fax: +61 7 3858 3199 Helpdesk phone: +61 7 3858 3188 email: helpdesk(a)apnic.net

Please send Internet Resource Requests to _____________________________________________________________________

[sid(a)tsnz.net - Wed Oct 20 12:27:02 2004]:

...

Hi

I'm writing to you on behalf of one of my customers XXXXXXX > > as we have something of a dilemma.

I believe the XXXXXX applied for some PI address space from the university of waikato sometime in the mid-1990s and were allocated 203.27.xx.0/23.

I also believe this space was "swamp" space and not allocated to any of the various service providers in New Zealand.

They have had this space routed to them via effectively the same provider since then. The provider for the past 3 years has been TelstraClear NZ Ltd, prior to that it was Telstra NZ Ltd and previously Netlink

Can you please clarify who the /23 is allocated to.

Can you please clarify if the customer can still use this space while connected to the provider they have had for the past decade.

Further if this is the case how do we get the current records updated to reflect this sub-delegation. I'm also curious as to what effect

if

...

any this has on other customers I have in 202.27/16

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

From Telecom NZ's position nothing has changed over the last few months.

Telecom inherited the responsibility for the NZGate IP blocks from Waikato, we also assumed the cost of "ownership" in our annual fees from APNIC and cost of mantaining reverse DNS and registration services for said blocks - not to mention the abuse on NZNOG from those who get this service for free. Telecom has never kicked anyone out of this address space although we actively try to tidy up and re-use space that has become free. The current situation is the result of privacy actions by APNIC not the actions of Telecom NZ. I have attempted to recify the situation by making the registration public again, but while I have access to do this through my APNIC account I cannot actually do so due to the various maintainer objects that protect the records. APNIC are now going to change all maintainers to Telecom's so that I can finally sort it out! Simon's estimate of cost comes up a little short (APNIC - $4000 per /16 per year) so if someone whats to asume the management and costs associated with these IPs I will be happy to talk to them. Regards Don Kendrick Chief IP Gnome Telecom NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Simon Lyall" To: "NZNOG List" Cc: "John Tran" Sent: Friday, November 26, 2004 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [nznog] [Inetnum object]

About a month ago I noticed the whois data for one of my networks had vanished and called APNIC, they said it was still there (although how I access it I don't know anymore) but that due to the new confidentially policy only Telecom would show up in the whois.

I sent in a little request to have it made public but they havn't been. I might have sent it to the wrong address however. Has anyone had their whois info changed back to public okay?

Looking at APNIC's fees it looks like the /16s would cost Telecom around $US 1000 each per year to APNIC.

On the other hand I don't think it is realistic to expect a small company with a /24, /23 or /22 to be expected to join APNIC and pay $US 2000 plus $US 1250 per year. These days it's simple to multihome for less than $NZ 1000 per month so APNIC membership could consume 10-20% of a company's Internet bill.

On Fri, 26 Nov 2004, Andy Linton wrote:

...

About a month ago Sid Jones and I had a conversation about one of his customers who has a /23 in this space. We raised the issue with APNIC

...

attach the thread.

There's a clear implication in the mail below that APNIC expect Telecom NZ to cooperate on this issue which seems to be at odds with their behaviour over 202.49.252.0 - 202.49.255.255 as David Robb has noted.

I suggest a number of things here:

1) each ISP who routes portions of this block should encourage their customers to write to APNIC requesting that as this block was allocated via the University of Waikato which was operating as a proto NZNIC at the time

...

this address space should be deemed to be provider independent space which should be administered as other 'swamp' space.

For example, here's a record that's recently been obscured as part of

...

exercise:

inetnum: 202.36.137.0 - 202.36.137.255

...

netname: NZMFE descr: Ministry for the Environment descr: P.O. Box 10-362 descr: The Terrace descr: Wellington country: NZ admin-c: MB22-AP tech-c: MB22-AP notify: dbmon(a)apnic.net mnt-by: APNIC-HM changed: hostmaster(a)apnic.net 19931217 status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE changed: hm-changed(a)apnic.net 20031020 source: APNIC

This is clearly PORTABLE space and makes no reference to Telecom NZ and

...

admin-c and tech-c details were updated just over a year ago. Note that

...

address was allocated in 1993 long before Netway (a Telecom NZ subsidiary) entered the picture at all. Why are APNIC changing the goal posts?

2) the customers should also write to Telecom NZ making clear that their portion of address space was not issued to Telecom NZ but to them by the University of Waikato (acting as a proto NZNIC) and that they want Telecom to relinquish control of this space back to APNIC.

3) I'd encourage APNIC to look again at this.

4) user groups such as InternetNZ, TUANZ etc need to get across this issue and raise it with Telecom NZ

5) I'd suggest the press get their teeth into this but that's probably not necessary as there's no story here. (:-)

andy

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [Fwd: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html (fwd)] (fwd) Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:20:59 +1000 (EST) From: John Tran To: asjl(a)citylink.co.nz CC: Anne Lord , Elly Tawhai , Tim Jones

Hi Andy,

We have searched all our historical emails and records regarding NZNIC as well as all information relating to 202.27.0.0/16. Here is the summary of what we found.

Before 1995, the following address ranges had been allocated by APNIC to the University of Waikato, which operated as a gateway for New Zealand, under the name NZGATE:

202.27/16 202.37/16 202.36/16 202.49/16 202.50/16

These ranges were allocated on the basis that NZGATE would make further allocations to their customers.

In 1995, Netway Commnication Ltd took over the international gateway function from the University of Waikato and the IP addresses were transfered with APNIC's approval. Netway continued contracting University of Waikato staff to allocate IP addresses on Netway's behalf to its customers.

NZNIC was then established by the University of Waikato to obtain provider independent addresses for other organisations like Clear Communication and Netlink. Netway was then transfered to NZtelecom in late 1997, along with the corresponding address space.

In November 1998, because of the confusion in the Internet community in New Zealand about whether the address space that they obtained from the University of Waikato was portable or not, APNIC and Brett Telfer (Netgate) re-confirmed that the above ranges would be best managed by NZTelecom. Since then, these address ranges are used by APNIC to determine the membership tier paid by NZtelecom as outlined in:

http://www.apnic.net/member/feesinfo.html

NZTelcom is able to assist any organisation holding address space with reverse DNS and is able to change the status of DB object to public, if so requested.

I hope the above information is useful for you. If you need additional information please contact us. If you would prefer to discuss this further, we can arrange a telephone conference.

Regards

Son

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 25 Oct 2004 12:39:44 +1000 (EST) From: Anne Lord To: Andy Linton Cc: son(a)apnic.net Subject: Re: [Fwd: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html (fwd)]

hi Andy,

Thanks for your email. I'm no longer involved in handling resource requests, but I have copied Son Tran, the manager of the Member Services department, on this email, who is and who will be able to help you.

It certainly looks like this warrants a much closer examination of the records and history and I am sure Son would be happy to talk to you.

Best wishes, Anne cc: Son

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Andy Linton wrote:

...

Anne,

I've had a conversation today with Sid Jones about this mail. These blocks were allocated to the University of Waikato which operated as the

...

...

in the early nineties prior to APNIC handling this work.

Aaron Scott who is listed in the changed record below went to work for Telecom NZ when they took over handling the exchange point at Waikato. There are a significant number of NZ government departments and other "blue chip" identities listed in the records who don't use Telecom NZ as their ISP and who believe that they have portable space. Some of them have /21 allocations and perhaps even /20 allocations.

This whole set of blocks really should be considered as swamp space.

I will be raising this issue on the NZNOG mailing list suggesting that

...

...

entities who have had these blocks allocated to then for periods in

...

...

of 10 years or more should contact you asking for clarification of

and I then this the this proto NZNIC those the order their position.

...

...

I think it would be good if APNIC took a good look at the allocations

within

...

these ranges and considered what's going on here.

Happy to discuss - +64 4 910 5654

andy

---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 2004 13:44:30 +1000 From: gpan via RT To: sid(a)tsnz.net Subject: [APNIC #624302] 202.27.0.0/16 and http://www.apnic.net/info/faq/privacy-faq.html

Dear Sid,

Thank you for your enquiry. It was proposed at the APNIC 16 meeting in 2003 that customer assignments (and sub-allocation records) need no longer be publicly accessible via normal 'whois' queries to the APNIC Whois Database.

Customer registration records must still be registered within the APNIC Whois Database, in order to document address utilisation, however a new 'public' database attribute has been created to allow these records to be excluded from public whois query results. This is why you are unable to receive any result when querying the APNIC Whois Database about this particular /23. You will get the result as:

inetnum: 202.27.0.0 - 202.27.255.255 netname: NZGATE-NZ descr: NZ Gate National Service Provider descr: Component of University Of Waikato descr: New Zeland country: NZ admin-c: DBK1-AP tech-c: KS61-AP remarks: service provider notify: dbmon(a)apnic.net mnt-by: APNIC-HM mnt-lower: NZTELECOM changed: ARRON(a)WAIKATO.AC.NZ 19950612 changed: hostmaster(a)apnic.net 20020208 changed: hm-change(a)apnic.net 20020621 status: ALLOCATED PORTABLE source: APNIC

Information contained within the historical records outlines that NZTelecom has full authority over the following blocks:

202.27.0.0/16 202.36.0.0/16 202.37.0.0/16 202.49.0.0/16 202.50.0.0/16 203.96.0.0/17

Information from those records also outline that the assignments from these ranges are non portable.

202.27.xx.0/23

This address space is from a block allocated, by APNIC to NZTelecom. This means that all assignments made from this block are non portable.

If your customer would like to see or change their records in APNIC whois database, please advise them to contact NZ Telecom.

Best Regards, Guangliang

____________________________________________________________________ Guangliang Pan, Internet Resource Analyst Asia Pacific Network Information Centre phone: +61 7 3858 3100 http://www.apnic.net fax: +61 7 3858 3199 Helpdesk phone: +61 7 3858 3188 email: helpdesk(a)apnic.net

Please send Internet Resource Requests to _____________________________________________________________________

[sid(a)tsnz.net - Wed Oct 20 12:27:02 2004]:

...

Hi

I'm writing to you on behalf of one of my customers XXXXXXX > > as we have something of a dilemma.

I believe the XXXXXX applied for some PI address space from the university of waikato sometime in the mid-1990s and were allocated 203.27.xx.0/23.

I also believe this space was "swamp" space and not allocated to any of the various service providers in New Zealand.

They have had this space routed to them via effectively the same provider since then. The provider for the past 3 years has been TelstraClear NZ Ltd, prior to that it was Telstra NZ Ltd and previously Netlink

Can you please clarify who the /23 is allocated to.

Can you please clarify if the customer can still use this space while connected to the provider they have had for the past decade.

Further if this is the case how do we get the current records updated to reflect this sub-delegation. I'm also curious as to what effect if any this has on other customers I have in 202.27/16

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

-- Simon J. Lyall | Very Busy | Web: http://www.darkmere.gen.nz/ "To stay awake all night adds a day to your life" - Stilgar | eMT.

_______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz http://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

I'm not too keen to enter the debate on the legacy space, but merely to make the observation that there are some small companies for whom the smallest (/22) allocation results in wastage due to non use of the space. Keith Davidson Simon Lyall wrote:

On the other hand I don't think it is realistic to expect a small company with a /24, /23 or /22 to be expected to join APNIC and pay $US 2000 plus $US 1250 per year. These days it's simple to multihome for less than $NZ 1000 per month so APNIC membership could consume 10-20% of a company's Internet bill.

Simon Byrnand wrote:

Comments ?

Pwn3d! By 4p|\|1cZ0rZ! -- Juha