August 2002 - NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

Re: bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by Ewen McNeill 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

In message <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208271600320.2972-100000(a)wark.lionra.net.nz>, Andy Li nton writes: >On Tue, 27 Aug 2002, Ewen McNeill wrote: >> And then someone could build a directory service over the top of that >> offering a one-to-many mapping. > >And as Chris pointed out that's (almost) already been done by Google (or >whoever you deem to be search engine of the moment). Google is the best-substitute-for-a-directory-service which we have at the moment. It's not exactly ideal. Your point that we could be focusing on a new directory service is definitely a good one. Although I personally think if we're going to take that approach to a logical conclusion we should completely devalue domain names (making them provider assigned arbitrary strings) to take the rest of the argument out of them. Half-measures seem like a recipie for additional problems. >Imagine this debate being held over 0800 numbers: Except that the other prefixes that you talk about are purely arbitrary in the 0800-etc case, and the second level domain suffixes being suggested here are at least somewhat meaningful divisons. The equivilent to suggesting 801, 802, et al (which incidentally do exist in another form, viz 0800, 0508, in NZ, and others in the US) would be someone suggesting co1.nz, co2.nz, co3.nz etc. I don't think anyone's seriously suggested co1.nz yet. >Also nice to note the categories before and after BANKS: Balloons-Hot Air >and Banners. There's some food for thought in the Yellow Pages categories. :-) >And the justification would be the same as that of the banks. And of >course 'celts.nz' can use many of the arguments put forward by 'maori.nz'. And celts.nz has my support. When are you submitting the proposal? I'll pledge $10 towards the $1000 fee for celts.nz as well (I've already pledged $10 for geeks.nz for Dean). Ewen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by Roger De Salis 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

The value of the namespace arises from both being simple and logical. It is very hard to see how a 2LD can be justified to support the wishes of the 5 real banks, and ~20 wannabe banks, or broking houses, or insurance houses, who like to think they are bank like. 25 entries is not likely to stress the .co.nz namespace (which is surely the only reason for considering another 2LD.) In the mind of the applicant, why would banks be (at internet level) any more or less special than any other commercial entity. Sure this would lead to .legal.nz, .treaty.nz, and a variety of other groups who for whatever (spurious?) reason somehow think they are "special". I propose to make a submission against .bank. R Ewen McNeiil wrote:- > (b) I don't have a major problem with any of the suggestions > I've seen on either nznog or isocnz-members, providing it's > intended there be a moderately logical hierachy underneath it. asjl wrote:- > Given that the vast majority of registrants are in 'co.nz' > anyway - the last number I saw was around 95%, I really find > it hard to see what value the structure has anyway. -- \_ Roger De Salis rdesalis(a)fx.net.nz </' FX Networks +64 25 481 452 /) Wellington, New Zealand roger(a)desalis.gen.nz (/ ` DSL - the 56k modem technology of 2004 - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by Ewen McNeill 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

In message <20020827043811.GZ83446(a)buffoon.automagic.org>, Joe Abley writes: >On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 04:16:06PM +1200, Ewen McNeill wrote: >> In message <20020827040606.GX83446(a)buffoon.automagic.org>, Joe Abley writes: >> [Why moderate 2ld but not 3ld?] >> It's higher up the delegation hierachy, so there are more people that >> might want it. > >I don't see that. Seems to me that the people who really care about >what names they get will register the names wherever they can. Does this mean that I can start selling names under newtld.naos.co.nz for the same sort of prices as names under co.nz get? Somehow I think not. Like it or not, there are advantages to shorter names, particularly where they're being printed on business cards, displayed in adverts, etc, with the expectation that people will type them in. Hence [a-z].co.nz, and [a-z][a-z].co.nz are all taken, for instance, but not all [a-z]{5}.co.nz are taken. >That being the case, there are probably the same number of people who >want $name.co.nz as there are who would want $name.nz. I disagree. I'm sure there'd be more people wanting $name.nz than $name.co.nz; possibly an order of magnitude more (but we might be talking a base smaller than 10...). While obviously the "land grab" could be managed, arguably that's exactly what the existing policy does -- manage the land grab. It's rather overmanaged for my tastes though. >> >[Why $foo-the-movie.nz rather than $foo.movie.nz] >> >Why do you need one? >> >> Because otherwise I think (a) a structured set of second level domains >> makes much more sense than the alternatives; and (b) we should approve >> any request that has a reasonable sub-delegation policy. > >There might be an appearance of structure in the way things are >currently organised, but I would suggest that close scrutiny of the >names registered within the current hierarchy don't illustrate the >point particularly well. I quite agree. At this point there are two ways to go -- (a) make more hierachy in such a way that people can be persuaded to use it (bank.nz, et al), or (b) give up. If we give up, then it'll be impossible to get any sort of hierachy again later. >I almost agree with your point (b), except that in my mind there >is no unreasonable sub-delegation policy, and consequently no need >for any "we" or "approve". I take it that you don't consider "we won't sub-delegate" to be an unreasonable policy, even for a much wanted name that would otherwise be an expected delegation point. (I do for "much wanted" names.) I'm afraid I have too little faith in human nature to think that the result of "any policy is okay" would be anything other than "no one plays nicely". >> We could all vote "yes" for bank.nz and never have to hear about the >> deleation of bank.nz again. Imagine that. :-) > >Why settle for a temporary cessation of symptoms when there's a >permanent cure for the disease? "I'm sorry sir, the legs will have to come off." "Which one?" "Both of them." Ewen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by Ewen McNeill 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

In message <20020827030232.GT83446(a)buffoon.automagic.org>, Joe Abley writes: >On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 12:04:10PM +1200, Roger De Salis wrote: >> It is very hard to see how a 2LD can be justified >> to support the wishes of the 5 real banks, and ~20 wannabe banks, >> or broking houses, or insurance houses, who like to think they >> are bank like. > >It's harder for me to figure out why anybody needs to be put in the >position of having to justify it. [no technical reason, etc] IMHO the reason for requiring a justification for creating 2lds is to ensure that they are created with some thought as to how they will be sub delegated, so that you can actually _have_ national.bank.nz, et al, rather than just having one organisation getting "bank.nz" and everyone else needing to get other variations (national-bank.nz, asb-bank.nz, whatever). The current process is, IMHO, way way over the top for what is required. Really all that we need to know is (a) there is a plan for sharing the name (ie, sub delegations), and (b) there isn't a much more logical unit of delegation to use instead (eg, "sport" might be more considered logical than "rugby-league"). FWIW, Dean's geek.nz seems more than adequately documented for these purposes to me, and I've already encouraged him to submit it. The alternative that some are suggesting (a free for all in the second level domain space) would basically ensure that the same "land grab" that happened in .com happens in .nz; and ensure that we have to have dozens of variations on $foo-movie $foo-the-movie movie-$foo (etc) to work around the collapsed namespace. ("national" being an obvious example.) As I said earlier today, I've yet to hear a compelling argument that $foo-the-movie.nz (and variations thereupon) is somehow better than $foo.movie.nz If we collapse the namespace so that it becomes "whatever you can get" under .nz, then we might as well give up any pretense that they're "obvious" and hand them out like ASNs. At least there'd be less call for "special" names -- once 42 and a few others had been handed out. And then someone could build a directory service over the top of that offering a one-to-many mapping. Ewen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by David Farrar 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Juha wrote: > Michael Newbery wrote: > > http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/395.html > > > > It seemed appropriate... > > Heh. > > > This seems to be two debates: > > 1. Do we need to open up the 2LD? As in totally open it up. Open > > slather. > > 2. Iff we don't want to open it up, do we need the .bank.nz domain? > > Isn't it more likely that openly commercial new 2lds like bank.nz are simply > attempts at bringing in revenue for InternetNZzzz....? Hmmn 17 names at $24 a year each will be a grand total of $408 a year extra income. Not a huge incentive. Opening up the 2LD space to anyone would generate a huge amount of extra revenue though. In fact it would arguably be possible to then set the registry fee at a lower level than the generic top level domains of US$6 (we are about to move to US$11.16 for .nz). DPF - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: bank.nz maori.nz geek.nz
by Ewen McNeill 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

In message <20020827040606.GX83446(a)buffoon.automagic.org>, Joe Abley writes: >On Tue, Aug 27, 2002 at 03:51:16PM +1200, Ewen McNeill wrote: >> IMHO the reason for requiring a justification for creating 2lds is to >> ensure that they are created with some thought as to how they will be >> sub delegated, [....] > >Nobody gave any thought to how domains under neos.co.nz might be >delegated before they agreed to delegate the name to you. I don't >really see why bank.nz should be any different. I assume you mean naos.co.nz; neos.co.nz is held by Eyecatchers Design Ltd. It's higher up the delegation hierachy, so there are more people that might want it. (A more obvious example in my case would be mcneill.gen.nz which I also hold -- and in that instance you might well argue that someone _should_ have considered how it'd have been delegated first, and I'd agree with you.) >> The alternative that some are suggesting (a free for all in the second >> level domain space) would basically ensure that the same "land grab" >> that happened in .com happens in .nz [....] > >I'm not sure that domain fever is still at the pitch it was a few >years ago. Certainly a couple of the new gTLD registry operators >seem to be disappointed that it isn't. Perhaps not. But I'm fairly sure there'd be land grab all the same. At very least, those that think that the Banker's Association would be the ones to get bank.nz (and the same for all the other obvious delegations) show an, umm, touching faith in human nature. >> As I said earlier today, I've yet to hear a compelling argument that >> $foo-the-movie.nz (and variations thereupon) is somehow better than >> $foo.movie.nz > >Why do you need one? Because otherwise I think (a) a structured set of second level domains makes much more sense than the alternatives; and (b) we should approve any request that has a reasonable sub-delegation policy. >> If we collapse the namespace so that it becomes "whatever you can get" >> under .nz, then we might as well give up any pretense that they're >> "obvious" and hand them out like ASNs. At least there'd be less call >> for "special" names -- once 42 and a few others had been handed out. > >That's a strange comparison. ASNs are a mucher scarcer resource >than names, they're much more expensive and difficult to get hold >of, and you get whatever number the RIR decides to give you, >regardless of preference. That was precisely my point. That if we're going to give up any pretence of structure, we might as well go the whole hog and make them be arbitrary tokens that you get give by someone when you want a fixed arbitrary token. (The scarcity of obtaining ASNs is only because of the small number space for them; we could make it many times bigger and that problem would go away too.) >> And then someone could build a directory service over the top of that >> offering a one-to-many mapping. > >We could turn one largely flat namespace into another largely flat >namespace, and *never have to hear about delegation of bank.nz >again*. Imagine that :) We could all vote "yes" for bank.nz and never have to hear about the deleation of bank.nz again. Imagine that. :-) Ewen - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RFD - proposal to create '.bank.nz'
by Sue Leader 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Greetings Request for Discussion [RFD] Proposal (2002) to Create New Second Level Domain - ".bank.nz" InternetNZ is calling for public discussion regarding the request for a new second level domain name (2LD) of '.bank.nz'. Discussion is open for a period of 60-90 days from August 26 2002. Discussion will be open for at least 60 days (until October 24) but the period may end earlier than 90 days (Nov 23) if, in the opinion of the Domain Name Commissioner (http://www.dnc.org.nz), substantive discussion has ceased. Anyone who is interested in participating in the discussion is encouraged to read the proposal, which can be found at: http://www.internetnz.net.nz/dns/2nd-level- domains/banknz02/2ld02proposal-banknz.pdf Obviously the Internet community is free to discuss this application anywhere and at anytime and are encouraged to do so. However, you may wish to subscribe to the discussion mailing list - send an email to public-consult-request(a)internetnz.net.nz and put "subscribe" in the subject line to see what others are thinking and saying. For information on the policy and history of Second Level Domains please refer to: http://www.internetnz.net.nz/dns/2nd-level-domains/ cheers Sue -- Sue Leader - Executive Director InternetNZ Voice: +64-4-472-1600 Fax: +64-4-495-2115 [Note new number] Level 4, Economous Building, 4 Bond Street (P.O.Box 11-881) Wellington http://www.internetnz.net.nz - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: [members-announce] RFD - proposal to create '.bank.nz'
by Lin Nah 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

I am glad others have followed up to this. I actually almost replied and deleted what I wrote What do they think has changed this time? Do they think putting in a request over and over again that people will eventually vote for it? Or will they now try to have a concerted effort where people (such as bank employees) will be encouraged to vote for it? This is a waste of time. I am surprised they didn't decide to go for the .bank TLD after failing on this .nz 2LD. I would like to know if the anyone within the present ISOCNZ council supports this proposal. If yes, why. If no, why AND if there's a unanimous no, why is our time wasted by this RFD? lin - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Wanted: Cisco AS5200
by J S Russell 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Now, don't laugh, I but I'm trying to locate a Cisco AS5200 chassis, functional, with no modems/dsps/other modules installed. (Though, if it comes with any line cards, they'll be gratefully put on a shelf and pointed at from time to time) This is for a personal project, not an Iconz project, so if anyone has one (and I know someone must) spare, that they might want to exchange for money or beer or curry or similarly priced spare technojunk, please contact me. JSR -- John S Russell | Big Geek | Fun will now commence. "The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy." - Drago Museveni C.Y. 8427 - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Auckland Thursday Night Curry.
by Simon Lyall 27 Aug '02

27 Aug '02

Some people here might be interested in this. Auckland Thursday Night Curry will next be held this Thursday the 29th. Forwarded details are below and current planning is to meet every 2 weeks. There is a (low volume) mailing list, to subcribe send email to majordomo(a)paradise.gen.nz with: subscribe curry in the body of the message. ----forwarded email---- The place we are trying this time is Raviz Indian Cuisine 15 Mt Eden Rd, Mt Eden. It is opposite Galbraiths 7:30pm start as usual a. Parking There's a pay and display park at the corner of Mt Eden and Symonds St, next to Galbraiths. The pay bit ends at 8pm. So you can put in a few coins for the last half hour (or take a gamble). Hopefully there'll be parks there. Otherwise try the parks along the streets, side street etc. b. Kingfisher They have kingfisher but not strong don't think we mind. c. menu Apart from the usual stuff (korma, vindaloo, tika, navabi etc), there's a few ne ones (new for me anyway) like Mango Chicken, Tikka Sawadee, and Tikka Banaras. I'll leave the other new ones for you to discover when you show up Can you please email Lin Nah <lin(a)darkmere.gen.nz> if you can definately make it. - To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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