- NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

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by Don Stokes 18 Nov '98

18 Nov '98

Joe writes: >Then we have a technical, operational and _global_ issue being decided >by a New Zealand court. This is worth avoiding at all costs. While I'm not sure that court action should always be avoided "at all costs" (it's useful as a last resort), I think heading this off at the pass is a good idea. And we have to realise that legal issues will raise their heads -- it's no good coming up with a "technical" solution that can be contested in court, because sure as eggs somebody isn't going to like it. So a position that makes sense technically, contractually and legally needs to be developed. Legally speaking, policy documents from the APNIC (apnic-11) pertaining to the period when most 202/8 assignments were made imply that IP addresses are portable unless explicitly stated otherwise. "Stating otherwise" is an interesting point -- the NetGate contracts being waved around about this time quite explicitly stated that numbers belonged to NetGate -- thus anyone with 202/8 addresses assigned by Waikato U acting as an agent of NetGate after signing such a document have non-portable addresses. (This may be contestable regarding how Waikato's position was or wasn't represented to the end user, but at least there's a bit of paper as a starting point in the argument.) Addresses allocated via UoW prior to the NetGate would appear to me to fall into the "portable" category, since no policy statement was ever issued prior to or at the time of such assignments that contradicts the position stated in the apnic-11 document. (apnic-11 expired in mid '95, but the superseding document wasn't issued until mid '96, which itself doesn't appear to state a position on portability.) I think that adequately sums up the contractual situation, at least in broad terms. Someone tell me if they disagree with that. This I believe is a completely separate issue to the question of how to improve the aggregation of network addresses. /24 prefixes in old blocks are generally regarded as a fact of life, to be addressed as and when possible, but not an issue when addressing overall Internet routing table growth, since the number of these addresses is not increasing. It seems to me that the second side of the issue is whether an ISP can or should route a given address block; after all, it doesn't matter who "owns" the block, if their prospective ISP won't route the address they can't use it. On the other hand, that ISP may lose the business in favour of one that will route the address. So I think a common position on how to migrate users to provider addresses, taking into account the cost of renumbering has to be found, and it can't be a position based on "ownership". The third issue, is whether there is a place for NZ-based allocation of addresses. I'm rather in two minds about that -- I'm not sure NZ really has enough addressing activity to justify an NZ registry, but it still bothers me a little that IP addressing is controlled by an offshore organisation. Comments? -- don --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: Let's try to sort the NZgate address questions out
by 2Day Chief Enthusiast 18 Nov '98

18 Nov '98

>I've arranged with Cisco Systems for a room at their offices, Level 28, >ASB Tower, 135 Albert Street, Auckland at 10:00 am on Friday 27 >November. I've done it this way so that there's something definite for >us to aim at and because I see that Auckland is the most sensible venue >for this. If you are not fixed on a date, can it be the following Friday? I would really like to attend this meeting, but have prior commitments. regards Peter Mott Chief Enthusiast 2Day Internet Limited http://www.2day.net.nz -/- --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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meeting as technical people
by Robert Hunt 17 Nov '98

17 Nov '98

Hello NZNOG, I fail to see how a meeting can be successful where there is not comprehensive representation of the decision makers in matters of ownership/proprietary claim as that seems to be the basis of some of the most contentious aspects under discussion. Certainly as far as the 202/8 continued portability... the issue cannot be resolved as a purely technical elegance question. Robert Hunt Plain Communications (still using 202.36.174.0 for all our most important servers and still expecting those numbers to be portable if we change NSP) --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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meeting as technical people -Reply
by Donald Neal 17 Nov '98

17 Nov '98

People, It is important to bear in mind that the use of provider-based addressing is a reality of the Internet's operation, and has been for some years. There are important issues of process regarding the way in which transitions by customers from one service provider to another are handled, but there are in general no issues of ownership to be discussed without major changes to the architecture of the (global) Internet. Issues related to the surviving pre-CIDR addresses need to be kept separate if progress is to be made on them. - Donald Neal (Opinions expressed in this posting may not be those of Telecom NZ Ltd, though if Telecom NZ Ltd are sensible they'll agree with me.) >>> Robert Hunt <roberth(a)plain.co.nz> 18/November/1998 01:05pm >>> Hello NZNOG, I fail to see how a meeting can be successful where there is not comprehensive representation of the decision makers in matters of ownership/proprietary claim as that seems to be the basis of some of the most contentious aspects under discussion. Certainly as far as the 202/8 continued portability... the issue cannot be resolved as a purely technical elegance question. Robert Hunt Plain Communications (still using 202.36.174.0 for all our most important servers and still expecting those numbers to be portable if we change NSP) --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RE: meeting as technical people -Reply
by Robert Gray 17 Nov '98

17 Nov '98

Donald Neal wrote on Wednesday, 18 November 1998: > It is important to bear in mind that the use of provider-based addressing > is a reality of the Internet's operation, and has been for some years. > There are important issues of process regarding the way in which > transitions by customers from one service provider to another are > handled, .......... Hopefully Donald, you will be on hand on the 27th to assist us understand your (and perhaps Telecoms') views and progess towards to a concensus we can all live with? Robert Gray Clearview Communications, Auckland New Zealand bobg(a)clearview.co.nz http://www.clearview.co.nz/ Phone DDI +64 9 529 5704, Fax +64 9 529 5702, Mob +64 25 971 860 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Numbers, and beer for morning tea.
by Roger De Salis 17 Nov '98

17 Nov '98

Numbers to myself or Andy, I'm sure the fridge is well stocked although Cisco frowns upon us partaking before midday. But I'm sure we could open it for Andy, as an exception. > If you want to attend can you let me know so that I can pass numbers to > Cisco Systems who, as well as providing a meeting place, have kindly > offered to provide refreshments - I'm not sure if that includes beer... -- \_ Roger De Salis Cisco Systems NZ Ltd </' +64 25 481 452 L3, 117 Customhouse Qy /) +64 4 473 4912 Wellington, New Zealand (/ roger(a)desalis.gen.nz rdesalis(a)cisco.com ` --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RE: Let's try to sort the NZgate address questions out
by Frank March 17 Nov '98

17 Nov '98

> -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Gray [SMTP:bobg(a)clearview.co.nz] > Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 5:52 AM > To: 'Andy Linton'; nznog(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > Subject: RE: Let's try to sort the NZgate address questions out > > Andy Linton wrote on Tuesday, 17 November 1998 > > > I'd like to propose that we meet face to face to try to resolve the > > NZgate address issues. > > While the NZGATE address questions are vitally important to those of us > who > use them, the issue is wider than that in my view. I would like to see a > comprehensive solution for rational address allocation in New Zealand for > the future, that is more than just NZGATE addresses I hope. I would like > this this meeting to be the start of the process. <snip> > It would also be nice to have representation (or at least an observer) > from > ISOCNZ and Telecom. > [FCM] My understanding is that Roger de Salis, who is an ISOCNZ Council member, will be there and will be facilitating. I have for sometime been concerned that this issue, and relationships with APNIC, especially as it becomes part of a 'supporting organisation' for ICANN, should be considered by ISOCNZ to be part of its responsibility for Internet consultation and governance in New Zealand. I will not be attending, Nov 27 is the date of the first meeting of the new ISOCNZ council, and besides I dont qualify ;) Frank March Specialist Advisor IT Policy Group, Ministry of Commerce, PO Box 1473, Wellington, New Zealand Telephone: +64 4 474 2908; Fax: +64 4 473 7010 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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RE: Let's try to sort the NZgate address questions out
by Robert Gray 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

Andy Linton wrote on Tuesday, 17 November 1998 > I'd like to propose that we meet face to face to try to resolve the > NZgate address issues. While the NZGATE address questions are vitally important to those of us who use them, the issue is wider than that in my view. I would like to see a comprehensive solution for rational address allocation in New Zealand for the future, that is more than just NZGATE addresses I hope. I would like this this meeting to be the start of the process. I also gather there are some other legacy addresses that may not be regarded as NZGATE? I thnink that these should also be included. In any event I think this is an excellent idea and Andy is to be thanked for organising it. I will certainly attend. > I propose that we treat this meeting in the same vein as an IETF meeting > i.e. it is a meeting for engineers who will sit down and debate a > technical problem and solutions to that problem and agree on a best fit > solution. That's certainly the right approach given the technical nature of the problem, however the solution must address the commercial needs of the various operators in NZ, unless it does it will not be possible to obtain 'buy-in' from the players and no progress will have been made. While some of us may well be able to speak to both technical and commercial needs there may be some organisations where this is not the case and in this circumstance I would hope that appropriate representatives of both sides would be invited? Furthermore the solution may have a commercial dimension, for example the solution to the domain name issue lead to DOMAINZ. It would also be nice to have representation (or at least an observer) from ISOCNZ and Telecom. > .... nor am I interested in any sort of finger pointing exercise > at individuals or providers. Too right. > .... I'm not sure if that includes beer... I live in hope --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Let's try to sort the NZgate address questions out
by Andy Linton 16 Nov '98

16 Nov '98

I'd like to propose that we meet face to face to try to resolve the NZgate address issues. I've arranged with Cisco Systems for a room at their offices, Level 28, ASB Tower, 135 Albert Street, Auckland at 10:00 am on Friday 27 November. I've done it this way so that there's something definite for us to aim at and because I see that Auckland is the most sensible venue for this. I'd also like to be able to indicate to those interested parties who will be at the ISOCNZ Forum this week that this is happening. ISOCNZ have indicated that they may provide assistance with travelling expenses for out of town attendees. Anyone who wishes to explore that needs to talk to them directly and make a case. I propose that we treat this meeting in the same vein as an IETF meeting i.e. it is a meeting for engineers who will sit down and debate a technical problem and solutions to that problem and agree on a best fit solution. We should then document that solution and endeavour to see that our respective organisations adopt it. Although I do believe this should be an open meeting I am not keen to see lawyers, business managers, marketing types etc there nor am I interested in any sort of finger pointing exercise at individuals or providers. If you want to attend can you let me know so that I can pass numbers to Cisco Systems who, as well as providing a meeting place, have kindly offered to provide refreshments - I'm not sure if that includes beer... -- Mailto:Andy.Linton(a)netlink.net.nz Tel: +64 4 494 6162 Post: Netlink, PO Box 5358, Lambton Quay, Wellington, New Zealand -- --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Re: Need for .nz WHOIS server
by 2Day Chief Enthusiast 12 Nov '98

12 Nov '98

Andy Linton wrote:- >I'll echo the call for a whois request in the form Joe suggested. I'll >also note that this is not a new request. I and a number of others asked >for this from Waikato when they ran the name registration, later when >ISOCNZ took over the administration before Domainz was created and again >since Domainz was in the picture. So we do share some concerns after all :-) >I look forward to being able to use it! As a matter of interest, what would you suggest the main purpose of having a .nz WHOIS is? regards Peter Mott Chief Enthusiast 2Day Internet Limited http://www.2day.net.nz -/- --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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