Agree for Juniper world MX40 would probably do you fine. But at 10Gbps and "a few thousand" subscribers I'd be tempted to knock up something on Linux and see how it goes for you. Maybe beta something with a portion of your subscribers? Grow it if it's successful. You wouldn't be the only person in the world to scale by throwing more 7301's at the problem either, to be honest. Perhaps a cheap stop-gap while you decide on long term way forward. Set a session limit for each box at a point you are comfortable with etc.. :) On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:11 AM, Dave Mill wrote:

A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

...

Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 <+64%203-481%207245> C: +64 21 323 841 <+64%2021%20323%20841> ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote:

...

Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

*From: * on behalf of Stan Rivett < stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM *To: *nznog *Subject: *[nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett

------------------

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PO Box 5691

Dunedin

P: +64 3 481 7245 <03-481%207245>

C: +64 21 323 841 <021%20323%20841>

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Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :) On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester wrote:

To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill wrote:

...

A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

...

Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 <+64%203-481%207245> C: +64 21 323 841 <+64%2021%20323%20841> ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote:

...

Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

*From: * on behalf of Stan Rivett < stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM *To: *nznog *Subject: *[nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett

------------------

Netspeed

PO Box 5691

Dunedin

P: +64 3 481 7245 <03-481%207245>

C: +64 21 323 841 <021%20323%20841>

------------------

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The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that. Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------ On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester wrote:

Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie wrote:

...

Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester wrote:

...

To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill wrote:

...

A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

...

Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 <+64%203-481%207245> C: +64 21 323 841 <+64%2021%20323%20841> ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote:

...

Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

*From: * on behalf of Stan Rivett < stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM *To: *nznog *Subject: *[nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett

------------------

Netspeed

PO Box 5691

Dunedin

P: +64 3 481 7245 <03-481%207245>

C: +64 21 323 841 <021%20323%20841>

------------------

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Concur, this works fine. If you redistribute connected and static on your BRAS, and then use aggregate-address statements for your dynamic pools, you'll end up with only leaking actual static users - this is done in more than a few networks with many tens of thousands of static subscribers. BGP loves it, trust me :) On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Peter Lambrechtsen wrote:

I wouldn't have thought Static vs Dynamic should be too much of a problem scaling horizontally depending on how you run your core unless you are intending to statically route from the BRAS to the internet. If you have a core router that you run BGP over a MPLS network to your BRAS, then you can just export each route as a /32 into your MPLS network and it won't matter which BRAS the customer turns up on.

Yes that would end up with a reasonably sized route table on your core to the internet but you are still only talking sub 16k subs so that should be doable even with x86 tin.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

...

The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that.

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 <+64%203-481%207245> C: +64 21 323 841 <+64%2021%20323%20841> ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester wrote:

...

Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie < gavin.tweedie(a)megaport.com> wrote:

...

Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester wrote:

...

To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill wrote:

...

A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

> Crikey, thanks for all the replies > > Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too > specific about numbers but more than a few thousand. > > Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its > like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-) > > Cheers > > Stan Rivett > ------------------ > Netspeed > PO Box 5691 > Dunedin > P: +64 3 481 7245 <+64%203-481%207245> > C: +64 21 323 841 <+64%2021%20323%20841> > ------------------ > > On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote: > >> Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending >> on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from. >> >> >> >> *From: * on behalf of Stan >> Rivett >> *Date: *Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM >> *To: *nznog >> *Subject: *[nznog] BRAS Options >> >> >> >> Hi all >> >> >> >> The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I >> got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote >> but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers. >> >> >> >> Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more >> than my first house? >> >> >> >> Cheers >> >> >> >> Stan Rivett >> >> ------------------ >> >> Netspeed >> >> PO Box 5691 >> >> Dunedin >> >> P: +64 3 481 7245 <03-481%207245> >> >> C: +64 21 323 841 <021%20323%20841> >> >> ------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list >> NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mai >> lman/listinfo/nznog >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog > >

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On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Andrew Thrift wrote:

You have many options for BRAS, each with their pro's and con's.

Cheap option would be buy grey market ASR1K boxes, or scale 7301's horizontally :D Mid price option would be Nokia vSR running on x86 High price option would be physical "big box" router, e.g. Nokia 7750, Juniper MX2/4/9xx

The Nokia vSR is a good option, supports hierarchical queues and has extensive RADIUS VSA's that allow you to tune almost every aspect of the subscriber connection. The other benefit is that in-country support from the vendor is excellent.

As long as you're happy with the difficult ALU/Nokia Accounting VSAs which are painful to deal with to say the very least as the same VSA gets used for multiple policers / schedulers. Using FreeRadius you need to split the Octets value with a 2 byte short and 64Bit counter. Alc-Acct-I-Inprof-Octets-64 = 0x00010000000000188d84 Alc-Acct-I-Outprof-Octets-64 = 0x00010000000001657e98 Alc-Acct-I-Inprof-Pkts-64 = 0x000100000000000025f3 Alc-Acct-I-Outprof-Pkts-64 = 0x00010000000000003eb1 Alc-Acct-O-Inprof-Octets-64 = 0x00010000000000c3333f Alc-Acct-O-Outprof-Octets-64 = 0x00010000000000bf15f2 Alc-Acct-O-Inprof-Pkts-64 = 0x00010000000000003833 Alc-Acct-O-Outprof-Pkts-64 = 0x000100000000000037b8 So to parse that I had to write fun code like this in FreeRadius. update control { Tmp-Integer64-9 := 0 } foreach &Alc-Acct-I-Inprof-Octets-64 { update control { Tmp-Integer-0 := "%{unpack:%{Foreach-Variable-0} 0 short}" Tmp-Integer64-0 := "%{unpack:%{Foreach-Variable-0} 2 integer64}" } if ( &control:Tmp-Integer-0 == 0x0001 ) { update control { Tmp-Integer64-9 := "%{expr:&control:Tmp-Integer64-9 + &control:Tmp-Integer64-0}" } } } <shudder>

Regards,

Andrew

...

Concur, this works fine.

If you redistribute connected and static on your BRAS, and then use aggregate-address statements for your dynamic pools, you'll end up with only leaking actual static users - this is done in more than a few networks with many tens of thousands of static subscribers. BGP loves it, trust me :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Peter Lambrechtsen wrote:

...

I wouldn't have thought Static vs Dynamic should be too much of a

...

...

scaling horizontally depending on how you run your core unless you are intending to statically route from the BRAS to the internet. If you have a core router that you run BGP over a MPLS network to your BRAS, then you can just export each route as a /32 into your MPLS network and it won't matter which BRAS the customer turns up on.

Yes that would end up with a reasonably sized route table on your core to the internet but you are still only talking sub 16k subs so that should be doable even with x86 tin.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:51 PM, Stan Rivett wrote:

...

The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our

clients

...

are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that.

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester wrote:

...

Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie wrote:

...

Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester <

sam.silvester(a)gmail.com>

...

...

wrote: > > To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the > throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you

...

...

...

...

...

> need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got > a decent RP and you should be right. > > If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a > few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an > RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample. > > Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out > horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit > about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which > means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less > than running only two boxes. > > On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill wrote: >> >> A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on >> exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't >> be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface >> limits. >> >> Dave >> >> On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett

...

...

...

...

>> wrote: >>> >>> Crikey, thanks for all the replies >>> >>> Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too >>> specific about numbers but more than a few thousand. >>> >>> Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its >>> like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-) >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Stan Rivett >>> ------------------ >>> Netspeed >>> PO Box 5691 >>> Dunedin >>> P: +64 3 481 7245 >>> C: +64 21 323 841 >>> ------------------ >>> >>> On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote: >>>> >>>> Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending >>>> on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: on behalf of Stan Rivett >>>> >>>> Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM >>>> To: nznog >>>> Subject: [nznog] BRAS Options >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi all >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I >>>> got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote >>>> but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more >>>> than my first house? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Stan Rivett >>>> >>>> ------------------ >>>> >>>> Netspeed >>>> >>>> PO Box 5691 >>>> >>>> Dunedin >>>> >>>> P: +64 3 481 7245 >>>> >>>> C: +64 21 323 841 >>>> >>>> ------------------ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 1:05 PM, Sam Silvester wrote: problem probably list

...

...

...

...

...

>>>> NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/ mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> NZNOG mailing list >>> NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz >>> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> NZNOG mailing list >> NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz >> https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >> > > > _______________________________________________ > NZNOG mailing list > NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz > https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog >

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Don’t do that. Put customer routes in to BGP, use OSPF only to carry your loopbacks and router-router links for iBGP to use. Keep your OSPF small, and your BGP big - it’s what they’re both good at. (OSPF and ISIS are interchangeable here)

On 10/11/2017, at 2:45 PM, Nathan Brookfield wrote:

Just running OSPF between them all wouldn’t solve that problem for you and worst case MPLS within a VRF?

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

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From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Stan Rivett Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:52 AM To: nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that.

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie mailto:gavin.tweedie(a)megaport.com> wrote: Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill mailto:dave(a)mill.net.nz> wrote: A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> wrote: Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:+64%203-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:+64%2021%20323%20841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price mailto:tim(a)initech.co.nz> wrote: Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

From: mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> on behalf of Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM To: nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: [nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:03-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:021%20323%20841 ------------------ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing listNZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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One expects that BGP is already in place there - why complicate it by having some routes in OSPF and some in BGP, then have to re-arrange things when your network grows? Very common small ISP mistake that can be a PITA to correct when you’re 5 times the size (as everyone hopes to be) and doesn’t buy you anything in the mean time.

On 10/11/2017, at 2:50 PM, Nathan Brookfield wrote:

I don’t disagree but when you’ve got /32’s coming and going between a few 7301’s as they may be bounced around from LAC’s, OSPF can be the simplest and most effective way to skin the cat and keeps it easy for a small deployment like that.

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au http://www.simtronic.com.au/ | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au mailto:nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au

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It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached.

From: Nathan Ward [mailto:nznog(a)daork.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 12:48 PM To: Nathan Brookfield Cc: Stan Rivett ; nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

Don’t do that. Put customer routes in to BGP, use OSPF only to carry your loopbacks and router-router links for iBGP to use. Keep your OSPF small, and your BGP big - it’s what they’re both good at.

(OSPF and ISIS are interchangeable here)

On 10/11/2017, at 2:45 PM, Nathan Brookfield mailto:Nathan.Brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au> wrote:

Just running OSPF between them all wouldn’t solve that problem for you and worst case MPLS within a VRF?

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au http://www.simtronic.com.au/ | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au mailto:nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au

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The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments.

It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached.

From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Stan Rivett Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:52 AM To: nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that.

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie mailto:gavin.tweedie(a)megaport.com> wrote: Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill mailto:dave(a)mill.net.nz> wrote: A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> wrote: Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:+64%203-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:+64%2021%20323%20841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price mailto:tim(a)initech.co.nz> wrote: Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

From: mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> on behalf of Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM To: nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: [nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:03-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:021%20323%20841 ------------------ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing listNZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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Two Nathans fighting on NZNOG, who will win?  News at 11. From: on behalf of Nathan Brookfield Date: Friday, 10 November 2017 at 2:58 PM To: Nathan Ward Cc: nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, neither of us know whether they are using BGP already internally, they may just have Ebgp and static routes internally, I’m just offering a suggestion. Move on with your day 😊 Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB) Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached. From: Nathan Ward [mailto:nznog(a)daork.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 12:54 PM To: Nathan Brookfield Cc: Stan Rivett ; nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options One expects that BGP is already in place there - why complicate it by having some routes in OSPF and some in BGP, then have to re-arrange things when your network grows? Very common small ISP mistake that can be a PITA to correct when you’re 5 times the size (as everyone hopes to be) and doesn’t buy you anything in the mean time. On 10/11/2017, at 2:50 PM, Nathan Brookfield wrote: I don’t disagree but when you’ve got /32’s coming and going between a few 7301’s as they may be bounced around from LAC’s, OSPF can be the simplest and most effective way to skin the cat and keeps it easy for a small deployment like that. Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB) Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached. From: Nathan Ward [mailto:nznog(a)daork.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 12:48 PM To: Nathan Brookfield Cc: Stan Rivett ; nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options Don’t do that. Put customer routes in to BGP, use OSPF only to carry your loopbacks and router-router links for iBGP to use. Keep your OSPF small, and your BGP big - it’s what they’re both good at. (OSPF and ISIS are interchangeable here) On 10/11/2017, at 2:45 PM, Nathan Brookfield wrote: Just running OSPF between them all wouldn’t solve that problem for you and worst case MPLS within a VRF? Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB) Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments. It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached. From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Stan Rivett Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:52 AM To: nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that. Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------ On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester wrote: Hivemind :) On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie wrote: Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :) On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester wrote: To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right. If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample. Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes. On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill wrote: A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits. Dave On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett wrote: Crikey, thanks for all the replies Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand. Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-) Cheers Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------ On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price wrote: Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from. From: on behalf of Stan Rivett Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM To: nznog Subject: [nznog] BRAS Options Hi all The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers. Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house? Cheers Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing listNZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog -- Global Interconnection Director Megaport +61 498 498 458 _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing list NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

I don’t know about fighting. I disagree with your advice, and am cautioning others before they take it - people other than the OP will be learning from this thread. :-)

On 10/11/2017, at 2:58 PM, Nathan Brookfield wrote:

I don’t know why you’re arguing with me, neither of us know whether they are using BGP already internally, they may just have Ebgp and static routes internally, I’m just offering a suggestion.

Move on with your day 😊

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au http://www.simtronic.com.au/ | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au mailto:nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au

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The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments.

It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached.

From: Nathan Ward [mailto:nznog(a)daork.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 12:54 PM To: Nathan Brookfield Cc: Stan Rivett ; nznog Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

One expects that BGP is already in place there - why complicate it by having some routes in OSPF and some in BGP, then have to re-arrange things when your network grows? Very common small ISP mistake that can be a PITA to correct when you’re 5 times the size (as everyone hopes to be) and doesn’t buy you anything in the mean time.

On 10/11/2017, at 2:50 PM, Nathan Brookfield mailto:Nathan.Brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au> wrote:

I don’t disagree but when you’ve got /32’s coming and going between a few 7301’s as they may be bounced around from LAC’s, OSPF can be the simplest and most effective way to skin the cat and keeps it easy for a small deployment like that.

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au http://www.simtronic.com.au/ | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au mailto:nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au

CONFIDENTIALITY & PRIVILEGE NOTICE

The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments.

It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached.

From: Nathan Ward [mailto:nznog(a)daork.net mailto:nznog(a)daork.net] Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 12:48 PM To: Nathan Brookfield mailto:Nathan.Brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au> Cc: Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz>; nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

Don’t do that. Put customer routes in to BGP, use OSPF only to carry your loopbacks and router-router links for iBGP to use. Keep your OSPF small, and your BGP big - it’s what they’re both good at.

(OSPF and ISIS are interchangeable here)

On 10/11/2017, at 2:45 PM, Nathan Brookfield mailto:Nathan.Brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au> wrote:

Just running OSPF between them all wouldn’t solve that problem for you and worst case MPLS within a VRF?

Kindest Regards, Nathan Brookfield (VK2NAB)

Chief Executive Officer Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd

Local: (02) 4749 4949 | Fax: (02) 4749 4950 | Direct: (02) 4749 4951 Web: http://www.simtronic.com.au http://www.simtronic.com.au/ | E-mail: nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au mailto:nathan.brookfield(a)simtronic.com.au

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The information contained in this email and any attached files is strictly private and confidential. The intended recipient of this email may only use, reproduce, disclose or distribute the information contained in this email and any attached files with Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd’s permission. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from using, reproducing, adapting, disclosing or distributing the information contained in this email and any attached files or taking any action in reliance on it. If you have received this email in error, please email the sender by replying to this message, promptly delete and destroy any copies of this email and any attachments.

It is your responsibility to scan this communication and any files attached for computer viruses and other defects and recommend that you subject these to your virus checking procedures prior to use. Simtronic Technologies Pty Ltd does NOT accept liability for any loss or damage (whether direct, indirect, consequential, economic or other) however caused, whether by negligence or otherwise, which may result directly or indirectly from this communication or any files attached.

From: nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz [mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz] On Behalf Of Stan Rivett Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:52 AM To: nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: Re: [nznog] BRAS Options

The multiple 7301 track was were I had been heading with one in Christchurch and one in Auckland. The problem is that most of our clients are RBI and we have no control over which router they appear on from our connections to Vodafone. That would be OK if we used dynamic IPs but we don't and its way too late to go back from that.

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 C: +64 21 323 841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 12:34, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: Hivemind :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:56 AM, Gavin Tweedie mailto:gavin.tweedie(a)megaport.com> wrote: Can you tell Sam and I used to work at the same company? :)

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 8:24 AM, Sam Silvester mailto:sam.silvester(a)gmail.com> wrote: To a point, the number of subscribers doesn't matter as much as the throughput. If you're looking at 16k+ subs on a single box, you probably need to start being a little careful but otherwise just make sure you've got a decent RP and you should be right.

If you simply need to shift (say) 10Gbps of traffic with "more than a few thousand" but say less than 16k, then anything in the ASR range with an RP2 and ESP40 will almost certainly be ample.

Another thought, considering you mention the 7301, is to scale out horizontally - it's not clear if you're already doing this. The nice bit about that also is you could have a few 7201s sharing the load 4 ways, which means your IP pool overhead to cater for a box failure is also much less than running only two boxes.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:41 AM, Dave Mill mailto:dave(a)mill.net.nz> wrote: A Juniper MX40 or MX80 seems to meet your needs there - depending on exact subscriber figures. From memory if every customer is in QinQ you won't be able to have more than 8000 on a MX80 series chassis due to interface limits.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> wrote: Crikey, thanks for all the replies

Yes we need 10 Gbit, at least 3 ports and I'd rather not be too specific about numbers but more than a few thousand.

Apologies for being a bit of a cheap bugger but you know what its like as an SME, it all comes out of my pocket ;-)

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:+64%203-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:+64%2021%20323%20841 ------------------

On 8 November 2017 at 11:14, Tim Price mailto:tim(a)initech.co.nz> wrote: Juniper MX5 + licensing shouldn’t cost you more than $30k depending on your Juniper partner status and where you buy it from.

From: mailto:nznog-bounces(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> on behalf of Stan Rivett mailto:stan(a)netspeed.net.nz> Date: Wednesday, 8 November 2017 at 11:02 AM To: nznog mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz> Subject: [nznog] BRAS Options

Hi all

The time has come to replace my poor old Cisco 7301 and the quote I got for an ASR1002-HX made my eyes water. Still waiting for a Juniper quote but the general discussion seemed like similar numbers.

Are there any other reliable options out there that don't cost more than my first house?

Cheers

Stan Rivett ------------------ Netspeed PO Box 5691 Dunedin P: +64 3 481 7245 tel:03-481%207245 C: +64 21 323 841 tel:021%20323%20841 ------------------ _______________________________________________ NZNOG mailing listNZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz mailto:NZNOG(a)list.waikato.ac.nz https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog https://list.waikato.ac.nz/mailman/listinfo/nznog

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