- NZNOG - lists.nznog.org

VOIP, the next big test.
by Roger De Salis 05 Jun '01

05 Jun '01

This is sufficiently thought provoking and on-topic that I thought it worthy of posting. RDS. The article disses Cisco fairly thoroughly (there are also some compliments as well). I've added some comments at the bottom. Feel free to discard my comments as appropriate. -----Original Message----- From: Peter Ecclesine [mailto:petere(a)aimnet.com] Sent: Monday, 4 June 2001 9:59 PM To: wireless Subject: Comments on Australia's VOIP nets From: Frank A. Coluccio Thursday, May 31, 2001 12:35 PM Glenn Turner, who apparently operates the Australian Academic and Research Network has some very interesting IMO things to say about running voice over the Internet. This is from the ongoing discussion on NANOG that questions: QOS or More Bandwidth? Enjoy, FAC ================snip begins: <so and so> wrote: > > > Whenever I did the cost of deploying and managing fancy QoS > > and compared it with the cost of getting and managing more > > capacity, it was always MUCH MUCH cheaper to get and manage > > more capacity than to mess with more QoS. > > We did one VoIP network deployment, and I tried each of the > different QoS services in IOS at that time (about 18 months ago) > both in the lab and in the field, and more bandwidth was the > answer then. Interesting. We have a national VoIP network which handles long-distance calls for the Australian universities. It's not a trial, it's a real VoIP rollout that interconnects the PBXs of the universities. We think that's about 300,000 handsets. More bandwidth doesn't cut it, as the voice calls then fail during DDOS attacks upon the network infrastructure. It's not too hard to fill even a 2.5Gbps link when new web servers come with gigabit interfaces and when GbE campus backbones are being rolled out. If these DDOS attacks use protocols like UDP DNS then traffic shaping the protocol is problematic and the source IP subnet from where the attack is launched needs to be filtered instead. Just finding and filtering a DDOS source can easily take more than five minutes, which pushes the availability to less than 99.999% and leads to legal issues with telecommunications regulators about access to emergency services. We found the Cisco low latency queuing to be adequate. It still has a fair amount of jitter, but not enough to matter for VoIP calls with a diameter of 4,000Km. We do have issues with Cisco's 7500: dCEF is still problematic, but needed for the LLQ feature. The QoS features are too linked to the hardware (you can't configure a service-policy that is enacted on the VIP or main CPU, depending upon the hardware). Despite QoS being most needed on cheap E1/T1 links, they expect you to upgrade to a many thousand dollar VIP4 to support QoS. We police access to QoS by source IP address, mapping non-conforming traffic to DSCP=0. As this requires an access list executed for each packet, the number of VoIP-speaking connecting sites to 50 or so, and requires H.323/SIP proxies at the edge of the sites. We don't use IntServ. When a link is down RSVP takes so long to find an alternative path that the telephone user hangs up. So what we are really waiting for is the implementation of the combined IntServ/DiffServ model so that hosts on member networks can do local authentication and bandwidth reservation and we can police the amount of QoS traffic presented at each edge interface. "Local authentication and bandwidth reservation" also hides a host of issues that are yet to be fully addressed. Most universities don't even *have* an authentication source that covers everyone that can use IP telephony. In practice, even with our deliberately simplistic implementation this whole area is a IOS version nightmare. There's no excuse for a monolithic statically-linked executable in this day and age. Hopefully Juniper's success with monolithic kernel and user-space programs will lead to Cisco looking to leapfrog the competition and adopt the on-the-fly upgradable software modules as described in Active Bridging (1997). Having dissed Cisco, I should point out that their H.323/ISDN gateway software that runs on their RAS boxes (5300, etc) was the most solid of all the manufacturers we tested and Cisco was the vendor most willing to fix the differing interpretations of ISDN we enountered when we connected the North American-developed RAS to our European-developed PABXs (Ericsson MD110, Alcatel, etc). ------------------------- As far as the "engineering staff costs" argument goes, we have found that they the real engineering time goes into hardening the existing infrastructure. When carrying voice every engineering shortcut you have taken comes back to haunt you -- clocking problems, a low percentage of CRCs, ATM links with no OAM, synchronous links with carrier nailed high. Very little of the costs were due to the configuration of the routers. Most of the cost was incurred at the edge of the network, where there is a greater variety of devices, less correct engineering, and worse configuration control. > The trans-Pacific problem is being solved. Give it another > 6-18 months and fibre between US/CA and ANZ or JP or SG should > drop significantly in price. Although the price will drop, it will never drop to the levels of trans-Atlantic prices. Even then, countries like Fiji which have landing points would find it hard to raise the millions required to buy an STM-1 from that landing point. You can make a case that North America is unique. It doesn't have 2,000Km expanses with no population centers. It isn't split off from the remainder of the world by mountain ranges so high that to do an hour's lifting can take a week. It doesn't have a population so huge that training people to lay fiber is in itself a massive undertaking. In these cases, no amount of money will buy you more bandwidth tomorrow and the engineering costs of QoS and TE are immediately worthwhile. VoIP and QoS let you use all of the long-haul optical capacity for IP, whereas the slower growth of the Internet in North America allowed the running parallel Internet and PSTN networks. -- end snip -- 'Time doesn't fool around.' 'without prejudice' U.C.C. 1-207 ======= End of Article ============================================= Comments by Rog. Please discard if you think not appropriate to this list. Cisco 7500, this was a pretty cool box 5 years ago. You all bought lots of them. We acknowledge it is now struggling to keep up, due to all the bandwidth. We'll trade it at favourable rates to help. Current thinking within Cisco is.... 7500 is a 5Gbps box. (really 4 x 1.25Gbps box). 6509/7600OSR is a 256Gbps box. Sufficient horsepower for long and complex ACL lists to counter DDOS attacks (but how do you find and load the source of the attack into the ACL swiftly?) 16 port GE cards means price of GE is slightly below US$1K/port. (7600-OSR appears to me to be 6509 with Optical Service Modules, STM-4, STM-16, GigE blades????? No we don't know why they did this either?) Fiji. The cost of an STM-1 card is about 5-10K. Double it for reliable service. So the millions referred to is really about how the Southern Cross consortium recover their investment dosh. Doing a sweet-heart deal for Fiji, and setting a price that Fiji can afford, sets a very unwelcome precedent for negotiations with other countries. So effectively Fiji misses out, and the country most in need of low-cost communications cannot have it. This is of interest to me as the same economic situation occurs in rural NZ. If rural NZ had widely available, fast communications infrastructure (10mpbs customer access minimum), then the choice of where to run a new-economy business would be much wider. The alternative is building more roads in Auckland. London built the M25 as a possible solution, but it simply created more traffic. Yeah, you have to have both, but comms networks are cheaper to build than road networks. R -- \_ Roger De Salis Cisco Systems NZ Ltd </' +64 25 481 452 L8, ASB Tower, 2 Hunter St /) +64 4 496 9003 Wellington, New Zealand (/ roger(a)desalis.gen.nz rdesalis(a)cisco.com ` 4/4/01. Mike Volpi, Cisco's chief strategy officer, announces four key markets: VOIP, wireless LANs, content networking, streaming media. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Number of AS's and Networks in NZ?
by Craig Whitmore 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

Has anyone a list of AS's in New Zealand I should see and the number of Networks associated with each AS? I want to make sure I am going Nationally for every place that is in New Zealand Thanks Craig Whitmore

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Paradise Not Announcing Routes to Telecom?
by Craig Whitmore 04 Jun '01

04 Jun '01

I don't think paradise is announcing all their ranges to Global-gateway/telecom/netgate ... All I can see coming from Paradise's AS via Global-Gateway's AS is.. 202.0.32.0/21 202.0.40.0 202.49.136.0 202.49.137.0 202.50.109.0 203.96.144.0/20 Which means going to a few of there sites takes the long way around This is from 210.55.71.10 (Netgate DSL Ports) [root(a)lennon /root]# traceroute 203.79.66.5 traceroute to 203.79.66.5 (203.79.66.5), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 210-55-71-254.adsl.netgate.net.nz (210.55.71.254) 46.917 ms 45.328 ms 47.723 ms 2 gateway.adsl.netgate.net.nz (192.168.253.1) 42.951 ms 45.873 ms 46.387 ms 3 202.37.247.253 (202.37.247.253) 247.152 ms 293.514 ms 228.592 ms 4 p1-1.akbr2.global-gateway.net.nz (202.50.116.161) 129.325 ms 170.006 ms 162.937 ms 5 202.50.116.170 (202.50.116.170) 168.543 ms 176.873 ms 181.526 ms 6 a4-1-0-3.sybr1.netgate.net.nz (202.50.116.82) 195.767 ms 191.548 ms 195.817 ms 7 connect.sybr1.netgate.net.nz (202.50.116.115) 200.465 ms 216.558 ms 229.336 ms 8 atm0-1-0-27.bdr1.syd.connect.com.au (210.8.219.237) 236.039 ms 233.281 ms 169.433 ms 9 Fddi1-0-0.pad13.Sydney.telstra.net (139.130.32.5) 179.480 ms 184.586 ms 197.406 ms 10 GigabitEthernet4-0.pad-core3.Sydney.telstra.net (139.130.249.240) 197.091 ms 222.966 ms 226.596 ms 11 Pos6-0-0.nzsx-core1.Auckland.net.reach.com (203.50.126.50) 251.709 ms 244.772 ms 259.497 ms 12 FE4-1-0.b2.sxb.akl.tsnz.net (203.98.4.2) 237.052 ms 247.860 ms 192.220 ms 13 bertha.lqy.tsnz.net (203.98.21.29) 219.672 ms 203.286 ms 217.687 ms 14 fe0-0-0.kelly.paradise.net.nz (203.96.152.1) 221.610 ms 243.152 ms 240.241 ms 15 ipnet.ipnet2.paradise.net.nz (203.96.155.157) 259.118 ms 244.233 ms 225.757 ms 16 * * * 17 203-79-66-5.adsl-wns.paradise.net.nz (203.79.66.5) 219.332 ms 220.679 ms 234.058 ms Paradises announced ranges works well ... traceroute to 202.49.136.1 (202.49.136.1), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 210-55-71-254.adsl.netgate.net.nz (210.55.71.254) 48.527 ms 45.405 ms 49.883 ms 2 gateway.adsl.netgate.net.nz (192.168.253.1) 45.382 ms 45.137 ms 47.048 ms 3 a3-0-1.tkcr1.netgate.net.nz (202.50.245.162) 44.982 ms 47.008 ms 45.924 ms 4 paradise.akcr1.netgate.net.nz (202.37.246.74) 57.388 ms 56.106 ms 57.412 ms 5 fe7-0-1.bertha.paradise.net.nz (203.96.152.254) 55.865 ms 55.924 ms 58.631 ms 6 203-96-144-21.cable.paradise.net.nz (203.96.144.21) 67.965 ms * 66.898 ms Thanks Craig Whitmore --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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The New Zealand Network Operators' Group
by Donald Neal 03 Jun '01

03 Jun '01

The New Zealand Network Operators' Group The New Zealand Network Operators' Group (NZNOG) has no king, president or formal membership. At present it consists of the subscribers to this mailing list, which anyone is free to join. This list has around 230 subscribers, growing by a handful each month. The NZNOG mailing list is provided through a server at The University of Waikato, and is administered by an employee of Telecom NZ Ltd. Neither of these organisations (nor the administrator) is responsible for its content. NZNOG Mailing List Acceptable Use Policy The NZNOG mailing list exists to provide a forum for the exchange of technical information and the discussion of implementation issues that require cooperation among New Zealand network service providers. In order to continue to provide a useful forum for discussion of relevant technical issues, users of the list are asked to respect the following guidelines. 1. Discussion will focus on Internet operational and technical issues. 2. Discussion related to meetings of network service providers is appropriate. 3. Discussion unrelated to these topics is not appropriate. 4. Postings to multiple mailing lists are discouraged. 5. Postings that include foul language, character assassination, and lack of respect for other participants are unacceptable. 6. Blatant product or service marketing is unacceptable. 7. Postings of a political, philosophical or legal nature are discouraged. 8. Postings to the list should be in ASCII or MIME encoded as text/plain. Attachments should not be sent to the list. To present a document, a suitable URL may be referred to. For documents of general interest, the use of proprietary file formats is discouraged. 9. Breaches of list etiquette should be dealt with privately with the offending list user, and should not result in complaints being sent to the list. Mailing List Archives A full archive is available at http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/nznog/ To search the archive, see http://list.waikato.ac.nz/archives/search.html (and remember to select nznog). Subscribing to the List To subscribe to the NZNOG list, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz, where the body of the message reads subscribe nznog There are at present no restrictions on who may subscribe to the list, or even on who may post to the list. Digest Mailing List If you don't wish to receive postings as they are sent, you can instead subscribe to the nznog-digest mailiing list, on which all postings are sent out in a single "digest" every couple of days. Other Activities NZNOG does not at present have other regular activities than this mailing list. Donald Neal NZNOG Mailing List Owner/Administrator/Muggins --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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(fwd) Re: NOTICE TO ALL (fwd)
by Matt Camp 02 Jun '01

02 Jun '01

Posted to nz.net.admin: -- forwarded message -- I think that this will clear it all up. As the letter was sent to ALL MIS cutomers I will presume that it is not confidential in anyway, if it is I humbly appologise Alan. ######################################################################## The rumour mill is doing overtime, so it is time to make some announcements. 1: Manawatu Internet Services Ltd is closing down. 2: There will be no loss of service for MIS or Flatnet customers. The last 9 years of operation of Manawatu Internet Services Ltd (Dawghaus BBS up until 1994) have been enjoyable and entertaining, however the stress levels associated with operating a small ISP have been taking their toll on my health for the last 2-3 years and it really has become time to move on to different fields. Mercury Telecommunications Ltd have acquired all MIS operations and will take over all DNS hosting, Webhosting and dialup accounts previously handled by Manawatu Internet Services Ltd. I am aware that almost all MIS/MFN customers have been with us for a long time, so I have been at pains to ensure that the best deal has been struck for our customers. For 95% of MIS dialup clients, the transition will be seamless. The exceptions are those people running Windows 3.* or Macintosh machines, as these machines have nameserver settings manually entered and will need to be edited. Please contact me for more details if you feel you will need assistance to change things. There are also 5-10 account names which clash with existing Quicksilver account names so changes may need to be made for checking mail - we're still working out how to resolve this small problem. Noone will have any changes made to their email address. As a great benefit of the changeover, national dialup coverage will again be available and Mercury also offer some very good toll deals. The changeover of dialup access will take place during the coming week and official notice from Mercury Telecommunications will be sent by paper mail to all MIS/MFN clients shortly. If you have any queries, please contact me by email, or by phone. I extend my thanks to all clients for their support over the years and I hope that you will all continue to support your new ISP - they _will_ provide you with continued good service and support. Alan Brown Director, Manawatu Internet Services. -- end of forwarded message -- --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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What's up at ORBS
by Andy Linton 31 May '01

31 May '01

Looking at www.orbs.org this morning (as I frequently do (;-)) I see: Due to circumstances beyond our control, the ORBS website is no longer available. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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FW: BLOCK: ORBS down?
by Juha Saarinen 31 May '01

31 May '01

-----Original Message----- From: Bill Maloy [mailto:Bill.Maloy(a)GOLDINC.COM] Sent: Friday, 1 June 2001 14:12 Subject: Re: BLOCK: ORBS down? > I downloaded the ORBS output_current.txt database on the May 22, 2001. Umm ... Data Size Updated ---------------------------------------------- ---------- ------------ http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~rjb/in_curr.zip 1346297 2001/05/26 http://www.tlh.com.ar/spambusters/in_curr.zip 1346297 2001/05/26 http://orbsdata.1st.net/inputs.zip 4861634 2001/05/26 http://www.tlh.com.ar/spambusters/inputs.zip 376540 2001/05/27 http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~rjb/out_curr.zip 1143119 2001/05/26 http://orbsdata.1st.net/out_curr.zip 1143119 2001/05/26 http://orbs.southcot.com/outputs.zip 3681170 2001/05/26 http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~rjb/manual.zip 69842 2001/05/26 http://www.tlh.com.ar/spambusters/manual.zip 69842 2001/05/26 http://orbs.southcot.com/ok.zip 10806456 2001/03/21 -- Bill Maloy (brm4) And no, akcf1.xtra.co.nz, the right-angle-bracket is NOT part of the URL. "GET /db.orbs.dorkslayers.com.1998.11.30.gz> HTTP/1.0" 404 540 --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Asiaonline Peering
by Chris Hellberg 30 May '01

30 May '01

This trace is coming from a netgate-connected PC via DSL to iconz.: odysseus(a)ns1:~$ traceroute www.iconz.co.nz traceroute to www.iconz.co.nz (210.48.1.113), 30 hops max, 38 byte packets 1 gateway (192.168.100.2) 1.214 ms 1.058 ms 1.001 ms 2 172.18.0.37 (172.18.0.37) 18.447 ms 16.481 ms 16.707 ms 3 172.18.4.2 (172.18.4.2) 28.454 ms 18.017 ms 17.485 ms 4 asiaonlinenz.ape.net.nz (192.203.154.44) 18.131 ms 18.229 ms 18.473 ms 5 202.14.100.33 (202.14.100.33) 19.081 ms 18.982 ms 18.945 ms 6 202.14.100.33 (202.14.100.33) 19.144 ms !A * * >From what I can gather there's peering between the two at ape. If reverse name look-ups aren't reliable enough to go to, the number of hops has certainly decreased so I'll go on that. :) Chris --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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NZ BGP stats
by Joe Abley 30 May '01

30 May '01

I'd like to collect some BGP data from NZ ISPs to see if I can see the same trends in RIB growth, de-aggregation and multi-homing that other people are seeing in other parts of the world. An NZ perspective might be interestingly different because of the history of pervasive peering that is absent from other environments. If possible, I'd like to take as full a BGP feed as possible from as many people as possible. Something like this, in fact: router bgp xxxx neighbor 202.89.128.76 description jabley(a)automagic.org neighbor 202.89.128.76 remote-as 65517 neighbor 202.89.128.76 ebgp-multihop 254 neighbor 202.89.128.76 send-community or perhaps protocols { bgp { group jabley { type external; description "jabley(a)automagic.org"; peer-as 65517; multihop ttl 254; neighbor 202.89.128.76; } } if that suits you better. If anybody thinks they might be happy to send me some data like this for a while, please let me know. Thanks! Joe --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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Prefix's
by James Tyson 30 May '01

30 May '01

ip prefix-list attica-networks description contact: noc(a)noc.attica.net.nz ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 202.50.60.0/22 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 202.50.170.0/24 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 202.180.64.0/18 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 210.55.5.0/24 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 210.55.111.0/24 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 210.55.157.0/24 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 210.55.202.0/24 ip prefix-list attica-networks permit 210.55.254.0/24 policy-options { policy-statement attica-networks { term accept { from { # contact: noc(a)noc.attica.net.nz route-filter 202.50.60.0/22 exact; route-filter 202.50.170.0/24 exact; route-filter 202.180.64.0/18 exact; route-filter 210.55.5.0/24 exact; route-filter 210.55.111.0/24 exact; route-filter 210.55.157.0/24 exact; route-filter 210.55.202.0/24 exact; route-filter 210.55.254.0/24 exact; } then accept; } term reject { then reject; } } } Cheers. James Tyson. Self-Deluded Governing Minority, Attica Network Operations. --------- To unsubscribe from nznog, send email to majordomo(a)list.waikato.ac.nz where the body of your message reads: unsubscribe nznog

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